ESTHER:   Good evening, everyone.  And welcome to the fourth of the NAVA Advocacy Program Workshops.  We have already got ‑ it looks like 82 people there.  Sorry that we're a little bit late starting today.  We have had the technical difficulties.  And we're very hoping ‑ very much hoping that we're going to be resolving our technical difficulties rather soon.  I can see that there are some people on the chat.  Hello, everyone.  Yes.  Good old technology, says Debby Talin.  Absolutely.  It's very much a time we're very much relying on technology being great everywhere.  Unfortunately, that is not always the case.  So we have one of our guests here, Darren Rudd.  Hi, Darren. 

DARREN:   Hello, Esther. 

ESTHER:   And the other two of our guests, John Alexander and Zoe McKenzie, still trying to get through.  So I am hoping that that will happen very, very soon because John Alexander, the member for Bennelong and the co‑chair of the Parliament friendship group for contemporary arts and culture is our first guest today and being on a tight schedule in a Parliamentary sitting week, he has already let me know that he's actually only got 20 minutes with us.  So I'm very concerned that by the time he joins us, he may have to get going again.  So before that happens, thank you to everyone who has been noting on the chat where you are, and where you're from.  Hello.  In the past we've had sometimes some trouble with hearing us as well.  But those of you who are on the public chat, how is the sound sounding this evening?  I'm hoping it's sounding good.  Hello, Anne.  Hearing me well.  Thank you.  Good.  A whole chorus of good.  Darren, have you got the chat interface open as well?  Are you able to see people and where they're coming from, WA, Grafton, Brisbane?  

DARREN:   Yes.  I think I have. 

ESTHER:   We've now got just over 100 people with us.  That will keep building up as we go.  So I'm going to absolutely cross my fingers that JA and Zoe are joining us soon.  In the meantime, let's make the very, very most of this time that we have with Darren because there is ‑ there's lots to talk about.  And this is the fourth week of our weekly workshops, the NAVA Advocacy Program is all about skilling us up, developing great advocacy skills together not just in an emergency, in a crisis like this but in a long‑term way.  There's some conversations in the chat there about a transcript from Elizabeth and Debby who has responded.  Should let everyone know first of all this evening is being live captioned by Helen who is in Brisbane, which is great.  Hello, Helen.  And we will pop up the link to the live caption in just a sec.  Then this is also being recorded and transcribed, and the recording is then made available on our website.  

Now, I can see that John has joined us, at least he is on the call and soon we will have his audio and his video as well.  And hoping that we will soon have Zoe joining us as well.  First of all, let me introduce Darren Rudd.  Darren is a global corporate communications, resources and government affairs consultant.  He has been a director of arts, cultural and bilateral companies in Australia and Asia.  Welcome, Darren. 

DARREN:   Thank you very much.  Good to be here. 

ESTHER:   Great to have you here.  Where are you today?  

DARREN:   I'm in my house in Kings Cross Sydney looking out at the water and got a whole pile of stuff here on my desk. 

ESTHER:   Very close to my Sydney home also on Gadigal land in Potts Point but I am in Melbourne in my Melbourne home which is my real home.  Of the Kulin nation.  Thank you to Holly who has put up the link to the live captioning which is a super handy thing when technology can be a little bit fickle and our sound can be not so great.  Darren, tell us a bit about, I guess, your background in the various roles that encompass government engagement, and I should say also just by way of preface to everyone that Darren and also Zoe who will be joining us shortly, is a board member of the Australia council but speaking in their independent capacities this evening.  Having just asked Darren that question I'm now going to segue to John because John can only join us for a short time this evening and while he is setting up there to be able to see us, Elanor is saying she can't see or hear is this being recorded.  Have a check of the audio and visual ‑ if someone can type a bit of a note to Eleanor if she can't see or hear if she can check her audio and video settings at her end and to note it is being transcribed.  Welcome to John Alexander, the member for Bennelong and the co‑chair for Parliamentary friendship group for contemporary arts and culture.  Thank you for persevering with the technology and welcome. 

JOHN:   As you can see ‑ can you hear me?  

ESTHER:   Indeed, yes. 

JOHN:   Welcome.  As you can see I'm at an age where I'm not likely to be good with technology.  I persevered.  It said press the button, I had to provide a user name and code and few other things. 

ESTHER:   Goodness me.  I'm glad you persevered. 

JOHN:   As with other events in my life, I persevere.  I'm not particularly talented. 

ESTHER:   And we have just had Zoe McKenzie join us.  Zoe is company director and trade consultant.  She's a former policy adviser in arts communications education and the law.  Liberal Party ministers and premiers at both state and federal levels.  Welcome, Zoe.  Thank you also for persevering with the technology.  Now, JA can only stay with us for just a few minutes this evening because he's got another meeting to get to right afterwards.  Today is a session where we're reflecting on the conversations we've had so far about what is advocacy, what are some different ways of engaging with it.  JA as the co‑chair of the Parliamentary friendship group for contemporary arts and culture tell us a bit about, first of all, what made you accept being chair of this important group and how do you see advocacy for the arts within your party ‑ within the coalition at the moment?  

JOHN:   Well, there's two things that have driven me to your arms.  One I did a lot of work on a project called Australia The World Stage which was actively looking at ‑ it's with Simon Birmingham now again ‑ actively looking at using performing arts and arts and sports as drivers for high tourism and for regional tourism.  So my thinking in regard to these things is that if you're representing just the arts, you will be looking at a certain level of funding.  But if arts are driving tourism and making Australia into, as I said, Australia The World Stage, then you're looking at a far bigger role that you will play.  And, therefore, greater budgetary support.  So there's those things that are, I think, really important positioning of arts, and performers in this extraordinary heritage that we have because we have had unbelievable actors, singers, musicians come from Australia, and artists, but I don't think we have given them an appropriate stage and an appropriate respect.  And also, in turn, the development programs to make sure that we produce the next generation.  So I think it's very important.  Then personally I also have a son who is involved in performing arts.  So that brings it home.  So I've got a vested interest there that I would like him to get work. 

ESTHER:   Always good to have that personal connection.  I think that's ‑ ‑ ‑ 

JOHN:   A more recent development.  But I think they're the things that I think I have worked on before I was involved with it directly, and I think that there is a lot of potential there.  And we're constantly looking at in these troubled times what can we do on the road to recovery.  I've spoken to John Barilaro about this also, to develop regional tourism and the regional economy and seeing that arts and performing arts can play a vital role in that because we don't want to endlessly be a destination of a reef, a big rock, and endless beaches.  We are far more sophisticated than that.  I think we can develop a season for arts.  There's no reason why we can't even have the arts season and performing arts season roll into a sports season where there is a continuity of tourism opportunities both here and internationally. 

ESTHER:   That's right.  In fact, we do have that.  Part of the challenge, of course, is the communicating of, and as you said there is ‑ you know, there is ‑ there are more funds available in the tourism area.  Is the challenge then that within the current machinery of government or portfolio arrangements that those internal conversations aren't happening?  How do we make sure that it's understood, for example, within the tourism portfolio, particularly ‑ we've got a couple of questions on this from our group, from Anna Glynn who is saying future international tourism is looking problematic so domestic tourism and regional tourism is going to be absolutely essential.  How do we join those dots within government so that those conversations are being had for the benefit of the sector?  

JOHN:   Well, I think a big thing is getting to know each other and I think part of that is for an effort to be made to engage with your local Members of Parliament, and, you know, find what they are interested in and then seek to, you know, have that conversation locally, and have them engage with what you have locally.  I can remember going to the ride hunters hill symphony orchestra and being captivated with symphony music and have had previous experience where I wasn't all that taken with it but as it was performed and live and being close it was, you know, a fantastic experience.  And that moved us to try and do some work there locally.  The group we were working with at the time was a little bit difficult.  They should realise that when somebody is trying to help them, this is how it comes and the responses that we were looking at wanted ‑ ‑ ‑ sponsors we were looking at wanted certain things.  You've got to maybe sometimes compromise the way you've done things in the past to get your foot in the door of the commercial ‑ you know, your sponsors.  But I think ‑ that's an important thing.  And then when you come to Canberra, you've got several friendships but, you know, I think there's a huge advantage you have in that when you present here that you can bring something that's exciting for people to watch, see, you know, listen to, and then meet the actual performers, or the artists.  And I think that's a very important thing.  And then to have a clarity of what you are actually wanting to ask, and what I've learned in negotiations is that you start with something that's very doable, and you and you alone know when you want to go to the first stage.  Once you get to the first little commitment, we will call it holding hands, then you move to the next little part of the relationship, and then, you know, pretty soon you've got a marriage and you've got children on the way.  So there is the idea of just a building those little relationships one step at a time, making them solid but having a plan of where you want to go to and not be in a hurry.  Don't come and say, "Well, this is what I want.  I want the marriage, four children and the house on the hill."  It's what do we get first, what's the first thing, what's the second thing, and move it along.  And they engage to find out, well, what can be given to you from these mysterious people who call themselves politicians.  

ESTHER:   There's a question from Matt who is you just saying just to clarify about the advice you've just given, John, around building those relationships with local members.  Your advice isn't about asking them the kinds of, you know, art that they would like to see made but rather understanding where they're coming from and, you know, what their interests are before pitching to them. 

JOHN:   Yes. 

ESTHER:   Yeah.  Yeah.  

JOHN:   Put them in with the bait that they want to take and get that personal relationship built on a common interest that you can share and that, you know, that ‑ I mean, it's a fantastic thing for a working politician.  You go to a lot of events but to go to an event that's truly entertaining and really moving, the very product you're trying to sell, expose that product to them, get them to buy into it, and then how can you ‑ how can you help.  And all the underlying reasons why you can help because when we were looking at music, we were wanting our musicians within the ride hunters hill symphony orchestra, (1) that they would be receiving funding from companies, and at times not the entire orchestra would be required for a company function but some of the players might be.  You know, three or four or five of the players.  There would also be other opportunities for those members of the orchestra to go into schools and to conduct ‑ assist with the development of their bands and orchestras in schools and their music program.  But being paid by the sponsors.  And I thought it was a great sort of plan of having more performing arts, more entertainment and also building with the players of today more players of tomorrow.  And, you know, actually having a ‑ 

ESTHER:   Now John has just frozen for me.  Darren, can you still see John?  

DARREN:   John is frozen for me too. 

ESTHER:   Oh, dear.  John, I'm not sure whether you can still hear us but we can't still hear you.  My next ‑ everyone is saying that he's frozen as well.  My next question for John was going to be to ask him about when he's speaking to his colleagues on the coalition side about the arts, you know, what are the sort of ‑ what are the insider tips and tricks for the way in which to position the arts in ways that perhaps we're not accustomed to.  I'm not sure whether we are going to get John back.  He did also say that he didn't have much time and I heard those ‑ both division bells ring at one point as well so I'm not sure what has happened.  So he's frozen.  A very thoughtful kind of mid‑sentence.  Let's look at some of the questions that have come in from the chat.  And see if Darren and I would like to tackle those and then we might ‑ we will see if John comes back or we will move on to the next part of our discussion.  

As you know, as part of the NAVA Advocacy Program we're in four different ‑ we have four different parts to our program.  We're going to have a whole four weeks on political engagement looking at things like getting to know, you know, an MP or a local member, you know, starting with, you know, what was their first speech, what are the values and principles, you know, why did they join Parliament, what did they want to achieve, using the Australia council electoral profile tools which is absolutely brilliant.  A question from Sarah Miller on the frustrations of forming relationships with MP of course you can form a great relationship with an MP or that member can lose their seat or there's a change of government and you can start all over again.  This lack of continuity has been an ongoing issue.  Do we need a more bipartisan approach.  Darren, how would you respond to that political life. 

DARREN:   I took notice of that questions.  Very valid questions.  A couple of quick ones.  I feel over engagement to John's point is absolutely critical.  Don't be afraid of engaging.  Absolutely engage with politicians of all persuasions and/or colours.  Engage at a federal level, a State level and also a local level because they all influence each other.  So I think that gets around the problem you've just got to ‑ and you don't have to do it every day.  My other insight if possible don't go to Canberra, engage with a MP or Senator in his or he will he can trot.  ‑ you get more time, if you can't get access to that Senator over time to glean what it is that interests them in the context of art get to know either their staff in their electoral office or their advisers that move between the electoral office in Canberra.  There's a number of ways to get to understand your MP.  Again I would encourage you to engage to Sarah's question, to all sides of politics.  You are going to find some of the more senior cabinet ministers, for example, it may be tricky to go to Perth to see one of them or go up to Brisbane.  That may require a concentrated planned cohort going to Canberra.  Don't be afraid to over engage get to know these people.  This is a longer term investment strategy.  It's not something you can do overnight.  You've got to ‑ I think John is back now.  I will let ‑ hand over to John. 

ESTHER:   Except that we can't hear John.  

JOHN:   Hello.  Is that better. 

ESTHER:   Hello.  That is, yes.  

JOHN:   Yeah.  Mastered technology again.  What I found out when somebody phones you, it takes you off this.  And that was my daughter.  So, you know, I played, you know, can't talk go away, I will talk to you later, and somehow I was lost.  But I'm back.  So yes, I think what you were just saying there, Darren, is correct.  What you need is a couple of champions, people who are enthusiastic.  Don't try and win everyone.  Find out those who can form a group, a friendship group here either formally or informally who are going to, when you do come to Canberra, that we can make sure that through personal invitation we get a number of our colleagues coming to support but you've got to have a purpose.  You know, what do you want, and it's got to be, you know, doable.  So I think, you know, it's a good time to be planning now because what can be done regionally to drive tourism now and to stimulate regional tourism because that's a really key thing.  Then if you think the other aspect ‑ because we're talking a lot about mental health.  There's a huge concern that mental health issues may sadly take more lives than the COVID virus.  And so if you think there's virtually nothing you can do better for your mental health than be entertained in any number of ways.  It's a distraction, it can be uplifting, inspiring, and I think that's a very important thing.  And not just ‑ it can be just watching, it also can be the participation.  So, again, the players can be coaches and get people involved, especially in that intimacy of a regional area and actually hold classes while they're actually in the time that they might be there doing performances. 

ESTHER:   And JA, I think that's absolutely vital, bringing the two conversations together about building those connections, knowing who the champions are, but also, you know, take us today, for example, here today, there's 125 of us.  Actually we're in some countries around the world but most of us are here in Australia.  If everyone of us was maintaining a really great relationship with our local member, meeting in their electorate as Darren was saying, introducing ourselves, I'm an artist, this is how I work, and building that relationship, inviting your local MP to your studio, to the gallery, to, you know ‑ because part of the ‑ John, I remember you saying to me last year and many times over the years that you're just not seeing enough arts people in your office.  And certainly your colleagues are not getting those meeting requests. 

JOHN:   Yeah.  And I think ‑ and you're right.  And the other great asset that you have, we have great artists who politicians are like star gazers like everybody else.  If you could get a Jimmy Barnes a person to come to a politician's office or Prime Minister's office you could be sure they would move the mountains, they would separate the waters.  They would do whatever they could to be in their company.  And it should be bipartisan.  This is not ‑ one side shouldn't own it.  In fact, if you could create some healthy competitive tension where they were competing for the favours of great artists, you know, you might find that much more would be done.  But it's also a part of maybe getting those people to understand what role you are really trying to do.  And, look, they have done all sorts of great things in recent times with the bushfires and now COVID virus how they can do things from their home with modern technology.  They're always ringing me up for advice on technology knowing what a master I am. 

ESTHER:   Now. 

JOHN:   That was humour.  That was humour. 

ESTHER:   JA we've got a question from Lisa who says, you know, we're very aware of, you know, your record as a sports hero, obviously, and that, you know, you've got great colleagues there who are also passionate for sport as well.  Can you name a few other colleague politicians who also strongly identify with an interest in the arts?  

JOHN:   That's a good question because the first bland answer is every single one of them would have a specific interest.  They would be hugely varied but I know a lot of them, you know, are madly keen on rock music and when we've had events like that, you know, there's a mad rush.  I'm just trying to think.  There's the member for Kevin Rudd's old seat.  She is pretty active in this area.  Her name. 

ESTHER:   Terri Butler. 

JOHN:   Yes.  I think she would be a really, really good one.  Even my friend Mike ‑ Michael Highlander, member for ‑ what is it ‑ anyway, Michael. 

ESTHER:   Member for somewhere.  

JOHN:   You find ‑ he would be a bit of a sleeper too and would have something in particular.  But I guess the idea would be to find out and categorise some of these people.  Maybe a little questionnaire ‑ in fact, that's such a good idea I will write it down. 

ESTHER:   Write it down, JA. 

JOHN:   A little questionnaire asking what the artistic interest is from rock and roll and circulate that and get them engaged in that way by responding.  Because there was a study made once when I was involved in the development of sports clubs and it was what do people like to hear from most if the phone rings.  And like the worst thing was your accountant your doctor or something and one of the top things was your sports club calling you up to say, "Hey, John, we haven't seen you on the first tee for a while, when are you coming to play golf again."  Or whatever.  You want to hear that.  You want to react.  But I'm sure that performing arts and arts would be in that category.  If someone is going to get a question about, well, it's a lovely distraction, what sort of music do you like, what sort of art do you like, what sort of theatre do you like, what have been your favourite shows, I think people would willingly reckon with that.  And then you've got intelligence you can use for your you don't know what you're getting at. 

ESTHER:   That would be amazing.  In fact we should work on something together in your capacity as co‑chair of Parliamentary friends.  We should definitely get a questionnaire out there.  One of the challenges we have in the visual arts unlike in the performing arts or rock and roll, those artists who are performers are often, you know, they have that profile because in performing in getting themselves out there they become recognised but of course in visual arts it's the work which speaks for itself and often people outside of the arts can't always name or picture a visual artist even though they might be ‑ you know they might absolutely love their work.  Is that a challenge for us, do you think, in terms of politicians, okay, if they're going to be responding a lot to high profile artists, what about those times when we would love to invite an artist to a meeting but a politician might not have heard of them?  

JOHN:   I will give you an example.  Years ago I was asked to be the patron of whatever of the South Australian women's open tennis tournament at the Barossa Valley.  At a place called Nuriootpa which I had never heard of.  What we did we then decided we would have an event ‑ pro‑am event, that is three people would sign up to play in a tennis tournament with one of the pros.  And it was called play with a star.  And this whole idea was that Steffi Graf five years before had won this event.  Now she had won Wimbledon, now that she's playing you could say good luck.  We made more money and got more people coming to the event on the Tuesday, Wednesday nights when we had this pro‑am thing than ever before.  You could do exactly the same things with performing arts and arts when you've got that contact when you're with the artists and say this person isn't famous.  I saw one of the clips now we've got to change our name to Kylie and Jimmy.  No, that's a cheap shot.  I am trying to help.  If I want to get abuse I will go home and talk to my children.  Thank you very much.  I think the idea is when you get that intimacy of who gets to meet an artist who actually paints.  For me ‑ I've been into an art studio maybe once for sure and maybe a couple of times I had a family member who was an artist, we saw her at work.  But it's a fascinating thing to actually go into somebody's, you know, studio and do something you couldn't even dream of doing. 

ESTHER:   Absolutely.  

JOHN:   People in those areas take it all for granted.  People who can't do it or somebody who can even play a guitar.  I mean, that's beyond my wildest dream.  But to then having put that on and just say, "Just do this" and actually make a noise that doesn't sound revolting.  That's a once in a lifetime experience.  There's so many things where you don't ‑ someone from their own country, you don't always appreciate people who have a level of expertise in something as others who can't do that but admire.  I might love the Beatles anyone who can hum a tune is fantastic, anyone who plays the drums is fantastic, but then say, "Hey, John, take this and beat on this", you know, it would be a great experience.  I think all of those things you can weave into your engagement and have that strategic advantage over someone who is trying to sell us a drug that's going to fix some, you know, really rare disease, as worthy as that is and fantastic as that is, you've got a real advantage.  I think if you understand your advantage and understand how you can better use that to, you know, get involved, but, you know, the development of a plan, I've made a note ‑ I took something to Louise Herron years ago which was about creating like the equivalent to ‑ I think it's called a gnarly festival, having a season of performing arts, opera, ballet and stage but then led into the ‑ and I think from my memory there is kind of a high season around about September or October or something but it led into the racing season and I thought that was complementary.  It went right into the detail of doing regional orchestras and stuff like that, and getting local companies to sponsor such things and to take it into schools.  So, you know, I couldn't get support at that time but it's back in front of Simon.  So I will find that and get that to you as well.  And Louise Herron who has got a very important position with the Opera House, she was really engaged with this.  She thought it was a very good plan.  And like a lot of plans that I develop, I start off with a little bit of an idea or I meet with someone, I steal their idea and take it to somebody else and it sort of builds into something.  We built it into something that I thought was quite doable, but, you know, if I can't get it up locally because of an incapacity to do a deal, you know, there's a problem we've got to find out how we work together. 

ESTHER:   Absolutely.  And I think part of the frustration certainly in the arts ‑ and I'm just seeing some of the questions in the field there as well, is that ‑ and there's one there from Nicole saying we are talking about some specific case studies and situations here, and, of course, a lot of us are in ongoing conversations with MPs but also those kinds of seasons where they're around festivals that are there leading into the spring season, connections to sporting events.  Part of our frustration in the arts is that there is so much that is already going on it's just ‑ it's really, really difficult for us to communicate that to decision‑makers, and to communicate, as Nicole puts it, how do we lobby more successfully as a sector current Federal Government is encouraged to acknowledge contribution of the arts to society as a whole and the contribution to GDP.  We do see successful lobbying from sectors such as sport.  How would you recommend on that broader national industry level.  Where are we falling short there?  

JOHN:   Yeah.  It is ‑ you know ‑ often obscene how much money gets spent on sports. 

ESTHER:   Yeah.  Yeah. 

JOHN:   I'm ‑ I've expressed my concerns because sports can often be commercially viable.  That used to be my business.  But there's an interesting definition of "team", and the definition of team is a group of individuals who come together to achieve a common purpose.  And hopefully they have complementary skills and more than their sum total of parts.  But if you thought of yourself as the world of performing arts and art as team and that you were united in your effort and that they're not people breaking away and refusing to take the flu injection, for instance. 

ESTHER:   I don't think we have many anti‑vaxxers in the arts. 

JOHN:   That's what is bringing it to the knees. 

ESTHER:   It's just ridiculous.  So irresponsible. 

JOHN:   To be able to speak ‑ have one voice representing you all and knowing that within your team you will get it sorted out and make sure that everybody is treated fairly, and that it's this wonderful world of performing arts and arts, and to call it a team might not be the worst thing because then you've got that association with sports which, you know ‑ and to use a cross promotion because nearly all athletes seem to be crazy on some form of music or whatever.  I know as a younger person which I was just yesterday ‑ I'm much older today, like you ‑ it's ‑ you know, there's another third party endorser that you can get.  And, you know, they're celebrities.  Whether you can, you know, find associations there that help carry your banner.  But I think, you know, there's so many things that can be explored.  But I think from this I think, you know, if you get one outcome out of a meeting good.  One outcome is we should develop a questionnaire to go to parliamentarians. 

ESTHER:   Let's do the questionnaire. 

JOHN:   Make it very attractive.  Maybe even showing, you know, say Johnny O'Keefe instead of Jimmy Barnes because I did a thing on Facebook the other day regarding Johnny O'Keefe who I saw once ‑ when he walked on stage I thought he was four feet off the stage.  He had unbelievable charisma.  At some point he must have been a young aspiring artist, people must have seen him at a local pub or somewhere, surf club or whatever and he becomes this wonderful star.  That's what we're wanting to purvey.  If we can push that questionnaire and get buy‑in and also I will find Louise ‑ the thing I sent to Louise Herron to see if we can't rebirth that and get a champion like Louise to champion our efforts too because if you think of the Opera House as being our Wimbledon or centre court we have a lot of field courts ‑ to bring it back to tennis, there's a lot of ‑ or off broad way that, you know, artists must work on their game to get to the ‑ their main stage or their ‑ fulfil their potential.  So I think that's ‑ to sort of develop some better structure might be really helpful.  And I'm still a believer although I've not got anyone to agree with me, that the chance to give people the opportunity to buy into young artists and take a share like you incorporate an artist, I would much rather do that than bet on a racehorse because I've got an interest.  I know I'm actually helping that young person.  It would be tax deductible and if they're wildly successful I get my money back, fantastic, and let it ride on the next horse.  I could have an interest every time that young person is performing at a stage show or something because I've got a share.  Maybe I get a discount on the ticket or something like that.  I would also seek to bring along my friends and show them how smart I am.  See that person playing this role, I'm one of the shareholders.  I just think it would be a really ‑ something that Australians would easily understand because in horse racing, lots of people ‑ Maurice pane for instance owns part of a horse, Minister For Foreign Affairs who is working very hard these days.  I am sure she would have ‑ very sophisticated lady.  I am sure she would have some very interesting artistic taste or maybe you will even find out she likes punk rock.  Minister Lee was a punk rocker in her teens. 

ESTHER:   Intriguing.  We will have to add that to the questionnaire.  Now, JA, I'm just going to look at my watch because you had let me know that there was a meeting you need to get to.  How are we doing for time?  

JOHN:   I didn't tell you but I got Jonathan to say that I might be late and might not even make it.  I'm far more interested in this than what Jonathan thought I should be doing. 

ESTHER:   Thank you, Jonathan.  In that case let us bring Darren and ‑ in that case let us bring Darren and Zoe in because we've got so many questions that people are bringing and there are a couple of more directly party political questions for you, JA, and one of them which comes from ‑ I'm just scrolling back up to find it ‑ Louise Roleman.  We just lost JA.  It would have been great to ask those specific questions about, yes, how would JA encourage an art lover to vote for the coalition because it's, you know, when we speak directly to politicians who aren't the Arts Minister people have all sorts of, you know, very different ways of talking about the arts.  I'm seeing in the chat there's some interest but there's also some frustration in ‑ from people in the range of things that JA was talking about.  But Darren, does he seem fairly typical to you of a politician when asked to engage with something that isn't directly in his line?  

DARREN:   Yeah, he does.  I've been following the questions closely and the observations.  A couple of comments.  I think ‑ I think it's important to build this profile.  101 of account selling is to understand your customer.  If the politician is your customer you need to understand and have a profile.  You have to do this collectively.  You can't just do it or somebody else can't do it.  Build a profile of who lights what up.  Through history politicians restore, relax recharge through the arts.  Various forms.  A couple of examples minister Coleman loves heavy music.  I've been in Perth with him at 99 balloons concert.  Chris Bowen loves deep literature.  There's all these little insights of people of all persuasions.  If you look at the arts from the bottom up there are community performing arts centres, local galleries.  By proximity there has to be an interest of politicians.  Some of them have deep passions and likings for art.  I would recommend a little audit, questionnaire, whatever you want to call it, and find out ‑ and start with cabinet and start with shadow cabinet.  And then work your way down the parties to the MPs that may not have senior portfolios.  And just build a profile.  Then you've got, you know, your little account selling plan.  You know who to go and see for which particular type of art‑related lobbying or awareness.  And don't forget their staff.  The staff are a key player.  Don't assume you need to sit down with the MP or the Senator.  Make sure you engage with the staff as well.  I did like the question about ‑ I won't get into the party politics but all I will say is just engage with all sides of Parliament and at all levels. 

ESTHER:   Absolutely.  Now John has magically appeared but from somewhere else now.  

JOHN:   Yes. 

ESTHER:   Altogether.  This is just the magic of technology.  Where have we moved to. 

JOHN:   I am doing really well.  I ran out of gas.  I didn't keep an eye on the fuel tank.  I don't know how that happened because I had it fully charged at the beginning of the day.  I just also thought before we went to questions, the member for Parramatta is a concert pianist.  Another one.  You've got interest dotted all over the place. 

DARREN:   Yes. 

ESTHER:   Darren was just saying on extending on the idea of that questionnaire is to do that audit and start up the top with cabinet and shadow cabinet, and find out what people's engagement with the arts is.  You know, what do they learn, what do they play.  Something that JA and I have talked about in his office but also in his electorate office about the artwork hanging in a politician's office.  It's been put to me by the former curator at Parliament House ‑ I don't know if you know John but Justine has moved on.  She's no longer at Parliament House.  She's now at the Art Gallery of South Australia.  I don't know if she has been replaced yet but I will find out to see who the new head of collection is over at Parliament House.  She pointed out to us future forward at Parliament House a couple of years ago that the visual arts has a bit of a secret advantage above other art forms in that we are in every room.  You know, where decisions are being made, where the conversations are happening.  And so is that, John ‑ do you ‑ when you go and visit others do you have that conversation about whose work did you choose, why did you choose that?  

JOHN:   Maybe that should be put on ‑ in our front of mind.  But inevitably you do look at their art and we get comments about our art and, you know, why did we have this thing here.  I've got a sketch of Malcolm Fraser.  Was I a huge fan.  Well, I did meet him and he was very, very nice.  And my father was deeply in love with Tammy Fraser, so that's a couple of reasons.  The real reason was he used to train with Stan Nicholls in Melbourne.  And Stan gave him a character reference in that he said he wasn't very talented but he was a very, very hard worker and he was the only client he ever had who paid on entrance.  So he got very high character marks and so I thought, well, I quite like him then.  So I've got his sketch.  Then I've got some indigenous art which I think is great.  And Josh who was previous to Jonathan, he was ‑ or is a mad keen Australian Rules fan so we've got some art ‑ you know ‑ 

ESTHER:   I think John has frozen again.  There he is. 

JOHN:   Anyway, we will go to questions.  Tell me what the question is. 

ESTHER:   Okay.  So I'm just saying John your line is a bit inconsistent and hopefully we will get to keep you for a little while longer.  Let me ask one of the directly party political questions that have come up.  Let's imagine it's election time.  You're going to be defending Bennelong again.  And there's an artist in your electorate.  And they're asking you why should I vote for the coalition specifically on arts policy.  How would you respond?  

JOHN:   Well, that politician would likely ‑ ‑ ‑ no politician would like to be put in a position like that.  Am I coming through clearly?  I've got an echo. 

ESTHER:   You have. 

JOHN:   It's a worthwhile question.  Everybody has got a particular interest.  And so it would be a question ‑ ‑ ‑ 

ESTHER:   I might ask Zoe if she wouldn't mind muting her line. 

JOHN:   I'm sorry. 

ESTHER:   I am just going to ask Zoe to mute her line because the echo that's coming across is from Zoe's end.  Then John continue.  

JOHN:   Yeah.  You are much better off to meet with the politician prior to that.  And people who come to you and argue something during an election do not win your heart.  I know I've had ‑ been cornered on any number of things especially when the press have been there or lots of other people, and, you know, then people don't like politicians who dodge and weave and try and avoid the question.  But cornering them I don't think is a good idea. 

ESTHER:   Okay.  Let's imagine you weren't cornered and that you've had that question on notice.  Why would ‑ just going back to the way the question was phrased, just ‑ yeah, what would your pitch be for your party's record on the arts?  

JOHN:   Well, I would dare say that our record is not as good as Labor has been.  My general understanding ‑ it comes from my son ‑ is that, you know, no one at Wappa liked the coalition because they didn't think they supported the arts as well as Labor did, and what we would say is that you've got to make money in order to be able to spend money.  The first thing you've got to do is take care of the economy and when you're flush with cash you can indulge in any manner of things.  But there should be a firm position of supporting the arts.  I think that firm position is finding ways to make it commercially viable and in doing that through tourism and linking it to tourism is the way that I think makes it commercially viable.  

ESTHER:   Let's bring in ‑ I'm hoping that both Zoe and Darren can hear us now.  We've just hit the hour mark.  We've got another half hour together.  We're going to chat a little bit more but towards the end of the session I am going to tell you some more about what's coming up in coming weeks as well.  John was talking about the viability of the arts, the commercial viability.  Zoe and Darren, as we know there's only a very, very tiny proportion of the arts industry that receives any kind of government funding.  It's probably about ‑ you know, it's less than five per cent.  You know, the arts industry is ‑ it's a ‑ people are putting in the chat there just the multibillion dollar size, 111.7 billion.  Of course arts policy affects everyone.  It's about accessibility, it's about regions, cultural diversity, it's about First Nations, it's about supporting infrastructure.  You know, there's all those other aspects.  How do we, you know, in those ‑ in a policy sense, how do we distinguish between, I guess, arts policies that seem to just benefit particular shows or art forms and policy that is for everyone's benefit?  How do we better articulate the public good of the arts, do you think?  

JOHN:   Well, I think I go back to that concept that, you know, if we are working cooperatively as a team and you've got a group of artists that have diversified that have a common goal, and that there is ‑ invariably there is the same benefits that flow from all artistic endeavours, whether it's, you know, to watch and be a spectator or a participant whether it's, you know, just for the sake of learning an instrument or a craft or whatever that is, and participating in some small way, and for all the benefits that flow, I often think that ‑ you know in my world of tennis, the downfall which has been exactly the same in rugby union, has been too much of a concentration of what happens at the Australian Open and that being a commercial success and the flow‑down of getting the racquet in the hand of a kid to play tennis not for any other reason than for the enjoyment of playing tennis.  And when you can then link that to the championship so that person who has learnt to play guitar or learnt to sing or learnt to play in a local theatre company is far more engaged with the theatre and will support it.  So ‑ and bring friends along.  So I think that's the pathways that need to be developed.  But quite far reaching.  And there would probably be new arts that develop that can become part of that family of arts and performing arts, or variations. 

ESTHER:   I think that's right.  I think that's one of the most exciting things about the constant evolution of art is the ever‑changing art forms.  And I guess that makes, you know, from a policy perspective that's very difficult to keep having that grasp.  I'm just going to bring Zoe in.  I'm hoping that she can both see and hear us and that we can hear her.  Zoe, how are you and can we hear you, first of all?  Okay, that sounds like no.  So we can see Zoe but I don't think she can hear us at the moment.  I know the team is busily ‑ ‑ ‑ 

JOHN:   Press the microphone button down. 

ESTHER:   Yes.  I am entrusting one of my colleagues on the chat to support Zoe to find that little button.  I'm just trying to see if I can unmute her from this end but unfortunately I can't.  Darren, it's strange because I can hear her typing but, yes, but she can't hear us. 

JOHN:   I heard the laugh there.  Can you hear us?  

ZOE:   I can speak and you will be able to hear me.  I can hear John perfectly even though he's sideways.  I can hear Darren but I cannot hear Esther which is a challenge.  

ESTHER:   In that case, Darren, why don't you ask Zoe ‑ see now it's like it's this weird thing and we're not talking.  Can you tell her that I said I would love to hear from Zoe's perspective as a former policy adviser in this area, how did she communicate the complexity of the things we've just been talking about, the difference between the ecology, the economics, the viability?  How did she work on that in advising her parliamentarians on policy direction. 

DARREN:   Okay.  To translate, Zoe, can you hear me?  Zoe?  No, Zoe can't hear me either. 

ESTHER:   Okay.  That is deeply frustrating.  Darren, let me ask you a similar but very related question because your work has involved high level political engagement where you need to communicate complex issues which from the point of view, perhaps, of the individuals or groups that you're advocating for might seem really straightforward.  What is that buffer place between yourself in government engagement and the politician that you're speaking to?  How do you, you know, really drill down and present an issue as complex as the ones we've just been talking about in ways that will achieve policy change?  

DARREN:   So looking at some of the questions as well, you know, you've got to understand what the artist is about.  What the day is like, spending a lot of time in studios in China as John has in his electorate as well.  It goes back just down to, you know, having an idea of what you want to get through, what you want to push through, what you want to establish, and just identifying the people to do that with consistently.  Now, you might have ‑ you've got to develop these relationships over time.  You just can't walk in as sort of John was saying, like you can't walk in during an election and put somebody on a tight rope and say you must do this.  You must develop these relations over time consistently and do it with all sides of politics.  Build real relationships and then over time you will get your policy priorities at least noted.  You may not get them actioned.  But, yeah, this is a long haul thing.  You need to start with John's questionnaire or audit, understand who in politics is interested in which type of art, and then develop a little plan to ‑ you know depending on what your priorities are to approach those priorities through those people first. 

ESTHER:   And we will be talking a great deal in future weeks about exactly that.  We're working towards once again Arts Day on the Hill as a national day of advocacy focus, but in building the relationships up until then, that's in the 12th of August.  But then also well beyond.  I think it's again from some of the frustrations in the chat and things that you and I have discussed before, JA, that aspect of relationship building is something that, you know, something that artists and organisations will often say to me is that, "But we've been having this conversation for decades" but that isn't the experience of someone who is in an elected position who has, you know, a million other voices sort of coming at them.  In the times when you and I have met whether it's been in your electorate office or it's been in Canberra, we've had our half hour and on either end of that you've got others who are coming in who are advancing their positions and so on.  How many different kinds of groups would you have come and visit you in just a day and how are you charge ‑ how do you characterise the differences in their approaches in terms of what makes for effective advocacy?  

JOHN:   Well, (1) I think you've got to know what you want and it's got to be, you know, within the realm of possibility is very important and, you know, to be reasonable is always an important, you know, aspect in building a relationship, and, you know, the days of a politician when you're at your home office and people often say to me on the street, "Oh, you're not at work", Canberra is not sitting I'm working in the home office.  "Oh, what do you do there?"  "Let me tell you."  But you do have ‑ we often have constituent days when the whole day is literally booked up with one half hour meeting after another and you know that I'm no good with time, so I will go over and mess up the next one.  And it can be anything from people who have recently ‑ recently I've had a person who I knew something like 40 years ago who was the head of SPC fruit canning company and he has worked into all sorts of interesting business ‑ very successful businessman.  He's well into his 70s.  He still works full‑time.  And he's got a ‑ Worley Parsons has done engineering work to put a pipe through from Tasmania to Victoria and bring water from Tasmania to Victoria to irrigate all of Victoria without the building of one dam.  I mean, fantastic.  If somebody else would have brought that to me I would have thought he's crazy.  This guy is not crazy.  I had another guy some months ago who brought the idea of wave technology to produce energy.  Fantastic.  A guy just recently who escaped Iran, had been working in their nuclear program has come to Australia and his visa is about to run out.  And he can cleanse nuclear waste and shield nuclear waste.  It's fantastic technology.  You get these things.  They're really exciting.  You follow them up.  And I feel like I'm employed by them because I, you know, believe in their product and then I think wait a second, if you two talk together you can form an even stronger lobby group.  Then you get people who have personal problems, had a lot of people who have ‑ were victims of child sex abuse at school and, you know, they're damaged people and you listen to them and you engage with them and you ride them through that program, and sometimes it's very distressing and other times, you know, there's a very good outcome.  So, you know, they're very, very broad days.  It's a fabulously interesting ‑ that part is a fabulously, you know, great part of the job.  Some of them are very challenging.  You get people coming in, they're climate change experts and some of the claims they make are wildly inaccurate and overstated.  So you've got to find your way in there.  What I would say is you've got to get a methodology down.  And I was just thinking when ‑ which is always a dangerous thing but when there has been an election and you've got a whole lot of new parliamentarians, a little welcome hello this is us, arts Australia, performing arts, da, da, da, welcome to Parliament, we will be coming to visit you in your office at your earliest convenient time.  So get in right at the beginning. 

ESTHER:   That has ‑ yes, that has long been a technique that I have followed very, very important.  JA, I'm just noticing on the chat there there's a conversation about the kinds of documents and so on that can be drawn upon when making arguments and when advocating in general.  You will find, of course, a wealth of information on the NAVA website and, of course, specifically at the moment our focus in advocacy is, of course, around what is needed to prevent the collapse of aspects of our industry during this crisis. 

JOHN:   Yes. 

ESTHER:   But there are also ‑ there's past submissions that are noted there and all sorts of things.  And I have also mentioned in the past but will mention again now that there is a handbook that accompanies the NAVA Advocacy Program and that is available for NAVA members only on our website.  Becoming a NAVA member is very easy.  It's as little as 7.50 a month which, again, is the price of a couple of coffees.  And there is extraordinary range of benefits and it's all on our website and all the details there.  Now, have we got Zoe?  My fingers are crossed.  Can you hear me, Zoe?  

DARREN:   Zoe?  

ESTHER:   She's smiling but I think it's an unrelated smile and not an acknowledgement of understanding.  It's so deeply frustrating because as Darren ‑ ‑ ‑ 

ZOE:   I can't hear you but I can speak and I can read you if I go off to the captions at the same time which is a little bit tricky, but, you know. 

ESTHER:   My goodness.  All right. 

ZOE:   Let me just bring in captions.  I can read it. 

ESTHER:   All right.  Let's see. 

ZOE:   Now I am reading myself. 

ESTHER:   Captions are fantastic.  Zoe, as someone who has been a former adviser in arts, in education, in law, having heard ‑ speaking very slowly so the captioner can pick it up clearly ‑ having heard the discussion so far, from your point of view in having to be a filter between industry requests, some of which are specific, some of which are imaginative, some of which are unrealistic.  What have been some of your challenges as an adviser in making sure that your parliamentarian is best placed to deliver what is best for the industry into the future?  

ZOE:   Excellent.  Okay.  I have got you.  So I think I have been really lucky in terms of the people for whom I have worked, particularly in and around the arts sector because they've always been very passionate about it.  My last Minister, Andrew Robb at every occasion every time we had a break in negotiations which wasn't often and I was thinking I will be able to have a meal now would drag me off to a museum somewhere in the world.  I worked for Ted Baillieu who was active in the arts, he used to drag me into the office and talk for hours about what we could do, he used to talk about white night, change the pit in the art centre, re‑enlivened Collingwood ‑ ‑ ‑ 

ESTHER:   Yeah.  Yeah. 

ZOE:   Small towns and that kind of stuff.  He was an extremely passionate advocate for the arts.  There is strong views for George Brandis.  I worked for him when he was arts minister first time around.  He was very successful in getting money primarily for cinema funding at the time.  That was the issue of the day and what we had 10 months to try and sort out at the time.  So I've always had the good fortune of working for ministers who are very passionate about arts and culture and who saw it as a really important part of what the federal government does.  One thing I would notice, though, is that they are responsive to parliamentarians across the board and parliamentarians are responsive across the board to what matters to their constituents.  So, in particular, issues ‑ you know, we know that if you survey middle Australia they will tell you they love arts and culture, they love the kids school choir, they love the festivals, live music.  When you ask them about culture they think sometimes you mean things like the Greek festival or Spanish festival.  Sometimes culture to middle Australia means ethnicity.  Nevertheless it's about culture and ethnic expression and they love it.  I find parliamentarians are really responsive to the things that matter to their constituents.  That's why regional arts does so well because we know regional arts is really a significant part of the lifeblood of ‑ ‑ ‑ 

ESTHER:   Bless you, John. 

ZOE:   ‑ ‑ ‑ of our towns and regions ‑ you have to wave at me when you want me to stop because I'm looking at you but I can't read you.  Good.  They're very responsive to what matters to their constituents.  If somebody decided to stop sculpture by the sea... if somebody was to stop, you know, some of the most well known regional festivals we have, people would go mental.  I think at some point there was a decision to try and get rid of the Taswegian symphony orchestra.  People of Tasmania was furious.  

ESTHER:   I am just ‑ back to the chat.  To continue that. 

ZOE:   I am working on a device I don't normally work on.  I have to find the page where you are. 

ESTHER:   While she finds the link to the captions.  Okay.  Excellent.  You are right, I've spoken to so many MPs who would absolutely lose their stuff if the ‑ if their favourite local arts event were to cease to exist.  Right now we're in a situation where the viability of the entire industry is at stake.  And my frustration is that I feel that parliamentarians either aren't getting it, aren't hearing us, aren't listening or aren't interested.  And so I'm trying to work out which one of those it is because as a ‑ there's a very real situation where many regional galleries may cease to exist.  Performing arts ‑ the carriage works news has been terrible.  Is it that ‑ is it all sounding so alarmist that people are switching off?  What are the ways to really harness that attention at the moment now we're in the middle of a global pandemic, everyone is clambering for the attention of parliamentarians, but our sector has the potential to support and inspire the entire nation, as JA and Darren were saying about the mental health issues, we have the potential to be such a positive force for good at the moment as well as supporting the industry.  How do we make that case?  

ZOE:   Okay.  So I think parliamentarians do understand just how important arts and culture is.  They would, if asked to rate it as a critical issue for right now, not where you want to see it.  Simply because the focus has to be on re‑enlivening the economy.  Where do we put a limited amount of money to create jobs, to re‑energise the Australian economy.  That's what I think.  I know there is lots of conversations going on about support for the arts and how it should be done.  Self‑evidently that's at the federal and state level and local level.  My city sent a great thing saying we're going to start plotting on a map all the arts and cultural things happening in our area so you can go.  Now you have mmm eyeballs and ears paying attention to the many things happening in cultural areas digitally at the moment.  There is lots of conversations going on.  On the one hand they're saying look we're not going to bailout virgin.  We could lose an airline.  If you ask middle Australia, Joe Punter what's more important, Virgin or carriage works and organisations like carriage works, they're going to say Virgin.  It's just the way the average person thinks because the average person doesn't actually realise how many jobs are going on in this space.  I saw a really ‑ I hate gambling, it's not my thing but I saw an ad on the TAB the other day that had the farriers, a woman holding some glasses an event at the races, whatever, and I thought that almost makes me want to bet.  I hate betting.  Damn it, there's so much that happens in and around the art as well.  It's not just the artist it's everyone engaged in the experience of arts and culture but I don't think that ecosystem is as well known to parliamentarians as artists themselves are or arts venues are.  If I can say one thing reprised in the comments many times about building relationships with MPs, the average MP sticks around for between 12 and 15 years.  They are there for a long time.  Esther you have invited me to things before.  I have said I've been involved in arts policy in pun way or another for 20 years.  I constantly get introduced to the same people like it's the first time I've met them.  I'm thinking 2003, 2007. 

ESTHER:   I remember saying that. 

ZOE:   2015 and now in 2017.  But that's okay.  Don't worry, I don't mind.  Whatever.  The other thing I often go to things.  Well, I don't go to anywhere near as much as I would like to, when I do, it's tea time, drinks, no one comes up and badgers.  I'm here to be asked questions.  I am here to work for you.  Tell me what you need, want done, what you love, hate, what you think needs to be done differently.  I had a good time.  Thank you for the ticket but please make me work.  That was when I was an adviser to the premier or arts minister or whoever else.  Make them work.  That's what they're there for.  Tell them what you're passionate about what you need them to know.  But I would ‑ I like that you would find out about the arts experience of MPs but I think the arts engagement of their local area is almost more important.  So their local festival, local book club, school, choir, the festivals they're engaged in I think that's the way to get to them.  Usually there are pretty detailed briefings given to parliamentarians about what kind of cultural or funded cultural things are happening in their seats.  You want your stuff in there.  You have three visual artists doing amazing work in your seat.  Here is what their names are.  You know, those informations can be provided to MPs and should be.  Then when you go in there to some extent your work is done.  Hi I'm so and so.  This is what we do here and it's really important.  You know, the local aged care folk are involved, the schools are involved, mental health groups are involved.  Whatever.  They are motivated by what matters to their constituents.  It's not rocket science.  Yeah.  

ESTHER:   Thank you, Zoe are, for putting that so clearly.  I have just put in the chat there the link to a really fantastic thing that the Australia council have put together some time ago which is Electorate Profiles.  This is for many, many years the Australia council and every funding agency collects data on what they grant and so on by electorates so that any politician can find out but also certainly taxpayer can see there hasn't been any favouritism towards particular electorates.  It occurred to the Australia council a few years ago ‑ a wonderful idea wait a minute if we're collecting this data we could make it publicly available and then that can be a wonderful tool for everyone to say, right, I've got a meeting with JA next week.  He's the member for Bennelong.  I'm going to go to the electoral profile page, click on the electorate of Bennelong.  Hello I've got all these wonderful statistics on ticket buying, on cinemas, on galleries, on people's attitudes to arts and culture on participation.  And the Australia council keeps adding to that which is just super, super fantastic.  So I recommend that to everyone.  We're now just in our last 10 minutes.  I'm going to make a few wrapping up and thank you kind of statements.  And I am just going to talk very briefly about the next few weeks and then I will bring in Darren and JA and Zoe for just our ‑ the last part of our chat.  The NAVA Advocacy Program is very much about everything we've just been talking about, including all the frustrations that we've just been expressing on the chat.  Yes, relationship building is really time consuming.  Yes, it can be frustrating when you're speaking to someone, a parliamentarian and they're not from the party that you feel the most aligned to.  Yes, it can be frustrating when we don't know what's behind, you know, certain kinds of decision‑making or when, you know, we've caught a politician on a busy day and they've had all the people that JA was just explaining has also spoken to them on that day.  Yes, as individuals certainly as individual artists no one has the time to put in the work that it would take to build a national cultural policy and pitch that or to build relationships with multiple MPs across the country.  But if all of us do a little bit, then the combined networks, the passion, the awesomeness of that is amazing.  There are so many of us.  There are a hundred of us here at the moment.  There are I think around 700 people who are registered for this program in general.  There are many, many thousands and thousands of NAVA members.  And of course there are 50,000 practising professional artists in Australia and 600,000 arts workers and millions of arts lovers.  So it can be hard to know what to do.  This program is all about we've just spent a few weeks talking about advocacy in general.  We're then going to spend four weeks looking at policy development in particular that ‑ the long‑term of it.  We're going to hear from John Daly, the CEO of the Grattan Institute next week.  I am thrilled he said yes.  I was going to turn my light on, it's getting dark.  That's called policy literacy where do the arts sit.  John Daly as well as being the outgoing CEO of one of Australia's leading think tanks, he is also either the chair or he's still involved ‑ I forget his specific role but he has been involved and has certainly been the past chair of one of the Australia council's research committees.  He's on arts boards, he is ‑ he has had very, very strong engagement with the arts which is fantastic.  Next week we're going to have Jacqui Bailey looking at global comparisons who is doing this well in other countries.  The week after that, 3 June our topic is achieving policy goals from within an invisible portfolio, and our guest that week is Mike Mrdak AO.  At the end of that week another Q&A with a politician on 10 June.  That will be Maria Vamvakinou, who is one of JA's co‑chairs of the contemporary group of arts and culture.  It culminates on Arts Day on the Hill where we're going to put everything we've done, we're going to apply that in some really impactful ways.  There's more of that as we head towards that time.  Our program is broken up into chunks of four weeks.  We've just done four weeks on understanding ‑ on advocating the arts.  Our next four weeks understanding policy development.  The four weeks after that are going to be about understanding the media.  Media engagement, being a media spokesperson as an artist and using analysis and so on.  The next four weeks will be about understanding the politics, political engagements, insights from the inside, how to plan a meeting with a politician.  And then heading into Arts Day on the Hill.  So that we can all do as little or as much as we would like, but that importantly we all remain as passionately engaged as we feel comfortable to.  

Now, we've got just a few minutes left and a few people are having to go.  Has anyone got a final burning question for Darren or for JA or for Zoe.  And I'm going to say to JA to give Jonathan a big hug and a thank you for me because he's clearly had to ‑ ‑ ‑ 

JOHN:   I have been suspicious of you two for a while, by the way. 

ESTHER:   Oh, darling.  He's been very wonderful in imposing for you ‑ in posing for you at the other meeting.  He has also had fantastic ideas on surveys we should be doing of fellow parliamentarians.  A few people are posting different submissions that are open at the moment, which is really great.  Someone mentioned earlier that although the Federal Government has frozen or suspended local content, you know, Australian content requirements for Australian drama, documentary and kids programming there is also a discussion paper out on that at the moment.  And it will be fantastic if people could contribute.  There's lots of ideas about forming national bodies and a couple of us here were on a chat about that very much today.  And then some comments there about the intrinsic value of the arts, the contribution that the arts makes to helping engage intelligent communities and how important it is for our government to recognise that.  Darren, it's ‑ it has been really, really great to get to meet you.  And Darren has also kindly said that he's happy to have one‑on‑one chats which is very, very kind of you.  

DARREN:   Absolutely.  

ESTHER:   I personally will be taking you up on that.  There is so much I want to ask you now we've gotten to know each other.  Zoe, thank you again, and thank you for persevering with the technical challenges.  It has been, yes, very much the hiccoughs this week but thank you so, so much.  And JA, huge thanks.  Final words of advice from you for artists who are engaging with parliamentarians for the first time?  

JOHN:   Well, thank you all.  Zoe, I would love to have you on the team.  You're fantastic and so are you, Esther and Darren.  Thank you.  I think there's a couple of issues that are probably timely that we should be pursuing.  One is the aspect of the arts being a tool to prevent and treat mental health to stimulate regions in the recovery.  The loss of jobs ‑ everybody is very sensitive about that.  To get the support for those who have lost their jobs and to use that support to help rebuild would be a good thing.  The attachment to taste trails which was the group that were pushing the regional tourism I think is very important.  I will make sure that I get their details to you.  And we will get you together working together, because that would be a very good thing.  By the way, Zoe, under Andrew Robb, who I was a great fan of, we had agreed to get a member of the George Brandis', as Minister for Arts to come, someone from the Minister of sport who was Susan Lee at the time I was representing tourism so we would be able to work together.  When someone from George Brandis' turned up at the meeting he was the Attorney‑General, he didn't even know he was the Minister for the arts so there was a problem.  And the same from the health Minister didn't know particularly this was about sport.  But it was about getting the three groups to work together because in Parliament these Ministers do not work together.  And on the night that we finally got together was the night that Tony Abbott got rolled, and so it was stillborn.  We've got to get those three ministries pulling together and in this time of looking at what to do in the rebuilding of our economy, it's a very, very important thing.  Because if something dies it's very hard to bring it back to life.  You have to keep it alive and put some money in this way and in this dramatic time this has been overlooked, this area.  And I think it's important that we raise it now.  So I will work at that end.  I will contact Louise Herron, and I think the questionnaire to all politicians is a good thing.  And there was ‑ and the working with regional tourism we can get John Barilaro now that he is staying where he is and we will find out a few others.  But we do have some very engaged people in Parliament in the arts, the more I thought about it, the more I came up with more names.  We do have quite a bit of down time at the moment to actually get creative and get these groups together.  I will make that admission tomorrow.  If we can talk Esther tomorrow we will push that along.  Okay?  

ESTHER:   It's a plan, JA.  This is good.  This is good.  Now, thank you so much to everyone who has attended this evening.  Darren, Zoe, thank you so much.  And JA, thank you again.  This is part of ongoing conversations for us but also just a really important chance to all have this conversation together.  So thank you very, very much.  And to everyone, join us again same time next week where we will be joined by John Daly, the CEO of the Grattan institute.  Thank you everyone.  And good evening. 

JOHN:   Good evening and good night.  Good night, Zoe. 

ESTHER:   Bye.  

(End)