ESTHER:   Good afternoon or evening, everyone, who is still coming in.  It is so nice to see you all for this ‑ I can't believe it is the last already of the NAVA Advocacy Workshop sessions.  My goodness, the 18th week.  Our Arts Day on the Hill debrief.  I'm Esther Anatolitis.  I'm the executive director of NAVA.  And I am on the lands of the Boon Wurrung and Woiwurrung people also called Melbourne.  It's a very grey day today which, of course, makes it the perfect weather for getting together with everyone and talking about a whole range of things.  And I can see people are still coming in.  Please, as ever, use the chat to tell us where you are, what country you're on, what it's like where you are.  

This is the final of our 18 weeks together through the NAVA Advocacy Program.  We have had such extraordinary time together finding ways to skill up in advocacy, talking about the key issues in the arts at the moment.  Looking at how policy is made, looking at media engagement and that aspect of advocacy.  And then, of course, political engagement and heading into that national day of advocacy focus Arts Day on the Hill, which was last Wednesday, the 12th of August.  

Now, as ever, this session, as with all the sessions, are recorded.  And the vodcast will be on the website tomorrow.  It is also live captioned with thanks to Helen, hello Helen who is in Brisbane captioning, and the link Leya has just posted there to the live captioning so you can click on that and see the words appear which is always super handy when you're trying to follow along.  

And, of course, that means that the session is not just video recorded but also transcribed and the transcription will also appear on our website tomorrow, alongside all of the vodcasts in the entire NAVA Advocacy Program.  So you can go back and have a good look at all of those, which is just fantastic.  

So today, let's look back on this year, this bizarre, disrupted pandemic year, first of all, I hope everyone is happy and safe and comfortable where you are, and that everyone is healthy.  Thank you to Leya.  Leya is our communications and advocacy manager.  She has posted the link to all of the vodcasts as well.  You will see them all there every week in the whole program.  

We're going to look back on those sessions.  We're going to talk about Arts Day on the Hill last week and we're going to hear from Nadia Odlum, who has just said hi to everyone from Gadigal land.  We're going to solve that mystery, Anna, of where has Esther's hoola hoop gone.  It's behind me.  It's funny you ask me, I got this critical mass of people asking about it in meetings.  I thought I might put it somewhere a little more subtle.  It is actually still behind us somewhere, it's just not quite as visible.  So we are going to hear from Nadia in a sec.  We're also going to hear from Sha Sarwari, who I can't see on the call quite yet, and hopefully will appear soon so that we can hear from artists who took part in Arts Day on the Hill, and also in about 30 or 40 minutes we're also going to be joined by Nicholas Pickard, who presented a few weeks ago.  Nicholas is the Director of Public Affairs at APRA AMCOS and is a former policy adviser to state and federal Labor Governments, including federally at the time of writing the national cultural policy.  He's someone you had a great response to.  In fact, someone said can Nick come back every week, and no he can't.  So he will be back to offer, you know, a bit of that political reflection as well on the advocacy year and on Arts Day on the Hill in general.  

And as we do reflect ‑ and I really want to hear from as many of us as possible about what you did on Arts Day on the Hill, particularly.  I know Anna Glynn is here, and Anna Cordingley and Adam as well and Rob who organised your own meetings, so we definitely want to hear about those things as well.  

We will go and reflect back on the program as well.  I will pull up the guide in a sec and look at the handbook.  And then we're going to spend some time looking at what's next.  What's next for advocacy together.  How do we sustain all of this good work and good thinking that this momentum, and hopefully the connections, the relationships that you've all built together, that deep connection to NAVA, but also the conversations and collaborations that you've all been having through this, and the kinds of things to be done together.  

So let's look back, first of all, on the entire program.  I am just going to open up the handbook which hopefully you are seeing on the screen, the very last one which was about understanding the impact.  Please give me some kind of textural sign that you can indeed see that and let's reflect back ‑ thanks, Caroline, first in there ‑ let's reflect back on the entire program and where to ‑ or, you know, how we got to here.  

So we started with that good look at arts advocacy and the work of particular organisations and advocates.  Quite an extraordinary foray sort of zoom right in there.  It's been an extraordinary 16 plus two week program.  We've had four weeks on advocating the arts.  We've had another four on understanding policy development, we've had another four on understanding the media, and then also getting into understanding the politics and achieving national impact.  We've talked about advocacy being not just something that is about how you connect with politicians as decision‑makers but how we have a range of conversations together.  What's some specific arts issues are, and looking at people in organisations who do that sort of thing for a living, while also running membership and network organisations like NAVA, but we also heard from artists who were involved in last year's Arts Day on the Hill, we looked at issues in First Nations advocacy, we had, as with every end of a four‑week block, a Q&A with a politician.  We went into policy development looking at, you know, where does the arts sit locally, nationally, internationally, where are the barriers to really great policy development.  We looked at the media and why it is that, you know, there's some things make news and some things don't.  And so ‑ and, you know, how some things sometimes make news in ways that really frustrate us when politicians co‑opt or manipulate the work of artists, so in those circumstances how best to engage with the media.  And then we got into the politics of it all so that we could have that great engagement with Arts Day on the Hill and really look at, in a national day of focus, building a critical mass, connecting with MPs in person or via social media, researching who they are, their background, given Parliament wasn't sitting we had a bit of a critical mass focus from 2 to 3 pm which would have been question time which we turned into artists' question time.  We looked at, you know, ways that we could do that and, you know, the response has been absolutely extraordinary.  And then we talked about, you know, starting to look at how we maintain those relationships.  

And so today's conversation is about debriefing.  What did we learn?  What was most useful?  What was most challenging about all of this?  What kinds of things would we have done differently?  And questions for everyone to keep thinking about, throughout our whole 90 minutes together today ‑ and please, you know, join the chat with these.  We will have some guests in just a sec.  How has the way that you advocate for the arts changed, or the way that you articulate your practice to different groups of people?  Or the way that you engage with or intend to engage with political processes.  

And really interestingly, are there commitments to future advocacy development that you're keen to make?  And how can we make those commitments?  Now, I should say that after today's session, we're also going to send you and everyone who has been registered for the program, we're going to send you a survey so that we can get some, you know, good specific information, make sure that we've got, you know, all that good feedback to reflect on this year and then build up next year's.  So big advance thanks to everyone for filling that out.  Not a long survey, but also really good for reflection as well.  

So I'm just going to close this and I'm going to invite Nadia to join and I also ‑ I don't see Sha on the list.  And so I hope that he received the update today with the link to kind of get in.  But Nadia, I'm going to make you a presenter and that is going to shift you in some way so that we can see you unlocking your mic and your camera and hopefully ‑ there you are.  Hello. 

NADIA:   Hi. 

ESTHER:   Now, there is the button to press to kind of ‑ no, I don't want us there, I want us in the middle.  But thank you.  I think that was Leya fixing that.  Hello, Nadia, how are you?  

NADIA:   I'm well, thanks, how are you?  

ESTHER:   I am good.  Ah, now what work ‑ that's not the voice of silence, is it?  

NADIA:   I forget.  But there's a very cute ‑ there's a cute work by Ivy Warne in the background.  That's a better work than the Matisse. 

ESTHER:   That is super great.  Nadia, where are you?  You are on the lands of ‑ yes, you have let us know.  You are in Gadigal country. 

NADIA:   Sorry, that's breaking at the moment. 

ESTHER:   Yes, you have frozen but I can still hear you.  Can you still hear me?  Ooh, technical problem.  Okay.  Hopefully. 

NADIA:   Yeah, hang on. 

ESTHER:   I can see there's movements. 

NADIA:   I'm going to walk downstairs and be next to my internet modem. 

ESTHER:   Good idea.  Yes, closer to the internet is good.  Definitely good.  And I'm just ‑ ‑ ‑ 

NADIA:   Can you hear me now?  

ESTHER:   Can definitely hear you.  Yes, and the vision is better as well.  Okay, cool.  Lovely.  All right.  So tell us ‑ oh, and, yeah, angle slightly so that the light is not behind you.  Perfect.  Getting all the ‑ we're just styling you now.  This is fantastic.  Very good. 

NADIA:   Getting a tour of my room. 

ESTHER:   Lovely.  All right.  So tell me, how was Arts Day on the Hill for you?  

NADIA:   It was really fascinating.  I think particularly I enjoyed the meetings in with the MPs.  Not that we really said very much as the artists' advocates apart from introducing ourselves but it felt interesting to be at the table and to be present for that, even as like just a ‑ you know, a real face of arts industry sitting there, you know, rather than any of the conversations being had ‑ seeming to be directed towards very abstract like who are these people sort of thing.  I felt like that was the value of being in on that meeting.  But then the personal value for me was also just watching and seeing how the politicians framed things or tried to guide the conversation.  And also watching you, Esther, and seeing how you guided the conversation in various ways as well. 

ESTHER:   Well, okay.  Tell us more specifically then about both of those.  The politicians first.  Tell us about which meetings you went to, and what were they like?  How was it maybe different to what you expected or maybe exactly what you expected?  

NADIA:   So I was in a meeting with Trent Zimmerman.  I'm having a mental blank on the other one, the shadow Minister for the Arts Labor. 

ESTHER:   Tony Burke. 

NADIA:   My head went Adam Bandt and I couldn't get it out.  Tony articulated very well what his position is on what he thinks the arts need.  He seemed to be very passionate and strong advocate for the arts and for creating arts policy.  Of course, being not in government at the moment, it's ‑ you know, I kept keeping in my mind that it's easier for him to say those sorts of things, not being someone who's then going to turn around and be like, "Well, where is it?"  But that was, you know, it was great the way he spoke about it made me think, oh, well, you would get my vote if it was at that time.  But then when we came to be then talking to Trent Zimmerman who of course is actually in government at the moment, what I was fascinated to watch with you, Esther, in particular, was I felt that your approach really changed from when you were talking to Tony to when you were talking to Trent.  And it became much more focused on specific things and, you know, not letting the conversation be, I guess, too general or washy.  In fact, you know, there were points where you were quite specifically being to him, "Actually, I had a meeting with so and so and we delivered a four‑page documents with statistics and recommendations.  And I can forward that on to you after this conversation."  It was really quite targeted.  Yeah. 

ESTHER:   Yeah.  And how did you then ‑ yeah, what ‑ thinking about the difference between there, why do you think I did that?  

NADIA:   I guess for me it felt like the ‑ when you were talking with the shadow Minister there was a lot of relationship building that was going on and making sure that they ‑ you both knew who each other were and they new your priorities and that, you know, they were articulating what they could do for you.  So it was sort of like a relationship building thing.  And that was the way I was perceiving it.  Then talking to someone who was in government, it felt like it was much more about... also looking at really sort of achievable and actionable asks that they could go forward with.  Because they actually do have power to do things.  

ESTHER:   Yeah.  Yeah.  Precisely.  I mean, with ‑ you know, when we meet people in opposition, yeah, it's always fantastic to hear them exactly as Tony Burke did, to really outline with some passion, you know, what they believe in.  And we want them to sustain that passion.  We want them to talk to other people about it, we want them to develop policy so that, you know, when it comes to election time, they are actually going to make those part of the platform, and because I think ‑ I think he ‑ I can't remember if he said this in that conversation or something else recently, the whole kind of, well, you know, we didn't win the election, if we had, blah, blah, blah.  And I know that Labor are ‑ you know, were very disappointed, obviously, because of that whole poll situation and, you know, having almost expected to win and having put so many different policies together.  

So from our point of view we don't want any party to think, "Oh, well, we lost because of having all these great policies", we actually want them to sustain the great ‑ you know, what's good about the policies.  And also maintaining that momentum because it's great to be in Parliament but it's probably ‑ you know, it's probably less fun to be in opposition.  And so, you know, we want them to get ‑ you know, to stay motivated, engaged.  And then, yeah, absolutely, when a member of government says, "Oh, look, that's really interesting", to be able to straight away say, "Oh, and I can provide you with some evidence so that when you follow up this conversation, you've got the stuff to hand."  And, of course, Trent and I have emailed about that and I have sent that information.  

NADIA:   Mmm. 

ESTHER:   You know, it's so important, as we've been saying in our preparation, that meetings have a purpose. 

NADIA:   Mmm. 

ESTHER:   We're meeting with you today for this reason and this is the kind of outcome, yeah, that we'd like.  Now, tell us also about Trent, because something that really impressed me was the preparation that Trent had done. 

NADIA:   Yeah.  So it was ‑ it was actually really nice and, you know, I was quite surprised and delighted by the fact that he had gone away and done a little bit of research on each of the artists that he knew he would be in a meeting with.  I don't know why that should surprise me so much.  Maybe my expectations should be that high always but he did it in a really good way, that, you know, I sort of briefly introduced myself, then he was ‑ he said, "Oh and I've seen from your website that you make really big sculptures.  How have you been managing that during COVID time?"  I was like, "Well, thank you."  So that was ‑ yeah, I was impressed by that.  And even just from something that would be good for me to remember any time that I'm in a meeting with someone, him doing that put me on his side very quickly, you know, and it very much was a very good tactic of, you know, just of respect and relationship forming with someone that you're in a meeting with.  So having little things that you can throw out that you know about them and it showed that you've taken an interest is really good. 

ESTHER:   That is a very good observation in terms of a political tactic which Rob McCredie has rightly identified as charm and disarm.  When you're in a brief meeting with someone and you've never met them before and also, you know, you might know that artists have a reputation for being, you know, direct, radical, maybe they're going to put you in a position of having to think differently about your preconceptions and, you know, challenge you to, perhaps, get into a place that you weren't necessarily going to be comfortable to do.  Yeah, one of the most important, you know, ways to extend respect or to charm and disarm is to reflect back that you have actually taken the time to find something out and to be able to raise that in a context.  Something that never ceases to amaze me about politicians.  I swear they all go to like politicians school for this, is their, like, amazing ability to remember everyone's name around the table. 

NADIA:   Mmm. 

ESTHER:   I don't know how many times I've gone into a meeting with a Lord Mayor, a Premier and there will be a handful of us or there will be 15 of us, and, like, obviously they've been given some notes but they know who everyone is. 

NADIA:   Mmm. 

ESTHER:   And use the name constantly.  And Nadia, when someone says Nadia, you know, Nadia, I really appreciated, Nadia, what you have to say about that, it does put us in a different mindset. 

NADIA:   It does. 

ESTHER:   Yeah.  Yeah.  And then, of course, your day started out with some media as well.  Tell us about that?  

NADIA:   Yeah.  I did a little interview on FBI Radio at 9.30 in the morning.  So I'd ‑ I'd done the little ‑ the media advocacy training with you guys leading up to that, which was fantastic, and was just really left me feeling quite empowered.  For those who don't know, that if you haven't seen it you can also see that it's on YouTube.  It's not amongst the vodcasts but you can watch back that media advocacy training that they did with us as well. 

ESTHER:   Did we put that on YouTube and not on the ‑ ‑ ‑ 

NADIA:   I couldn't find it.  It wasn't on the vodcast. 

ESTHER:   Leya, tell us where it is.  So our session ‑ our extra session on ‑ on how to be a media spokesperson.  Sorry, go ahead. 

NADIA:   Yeah.  So I got the interview by ‑ I'm friends with Anna May Kirk who is a producer for arts and culture on FBI radio.  And just reached out to her.  And I had been ‑ last time we'd had coffee I had been telling her about the NAVA advocacy courses anyway and asked her if I thought there would be any room for FBI to do any coverage on it and sort of pitched it to them too saying that I think a great angle too would be focusing on the ‑ you know, the advocacy training and how great that's been as part of sort of skilling up the sector.  I thought that would appear to the sort of demographic that listens to FBI as well.  It was good.  I definitely was less nervous talking live on radio than I would have been if we hadn't have done that great training session for sure. 

ESTHER:   Excellent.  And I am a big fan of FBI, as many of you know.  I was part of the broadcast trial that secured its full‑time licence, more than 20 years ago, and, yeah, have been deeply committed to community broadcasting for a very, very long time.  I just think it is ‑ yeah.  So enormously, enormously important.  

Now, Sha Sarwari has just joined as well.  And Sha, I'm going ‑ I'm just going to press all the buttons to make you into a presenter as well so that you can join us and we can hear about your experience as well.  Now, hopefully my doing that is not going to make Nadia disappear or me disappear.  Hopefully neither of us will disappear.  And instead Sha will appear as well.  Let me just see if that is happening.  I don't know if it's giving you an option there at your end, Sha, to turn on your camera and your mic because I can't ‑ there it is.  Yay.  Hello. 

SHA:   Hi. 

ESTHER:   It's so nice to see you. 

SHA:  I'm okay.  I'm all right. 

ESTHER:   It's freezing here today.  I know, I had my coat on for most of the day and I thought oh my God, yeah, it is super dooper cold.  It's going to be cold all week which makes it very, very lovely to be able to all get together.  We've just been talking about how Arts Day on the Hill was from Nadia's point of view we were talking about doing the meetings with the MPs and just seeing the ways that they responded to us and ‑ yes, Ann, obviously much colder in the Blue Mountains.  I actually quite adore the cold, good rugging up kind of time.  And Sha was also at several of the meetings on the day.  So tell us, Sha, what it was like from your point of view?  

Sha:  I think for me it's always good to be able to find a platform and to exercise my, you know, my ideas and my thoughts.  It was definitely a good experience and empowering experience to be able to talk face‑to‑face to the legislator that make decisions for us but we are not in the picture and they don't even know the condition of artists, what they go through.  Yeah, it was ‑ I ‑ I mean, I would definitely do it again and again.  And here I engage with the councillors and talk to them about art and the importance of art and the importance of art particularly in this time people are ‑ there's no ‑ there's no way to express ‑ everyone is like forced hiding.  So it's very important in terms of broad, also politically because as we are hiding the government is kind of sneaking policies/legislations that we don't know.  So it's good to have that direct face‑to‑face, you know, have access to the politicians in some ways to tell them what we are going through and what should be done.  Yeah. 

ESTHER:   That is a very important point that you've just made which is yes, while we are in hiding, while we are in our homes especially those in Victoria who are very much in their homes, there are all sorts of things that the government is taking advantage of and sneaking through.  We've talked a bit over this period about ‑ and there has been some things recently as well ‑ about education, about obviously workplace relations and the privileging and the deprioritising of certain workers, whether they're casual, whether people are on working visas because they are here from overseas, then also, of course ‑ so on education, the exclusion of universities from any kinds of support, the exclusion of local government from any kind of support through the whole pandemic, what we've seen in the last few days and late last week, these announcements about copyright reforms and the ‑ really just the kowtowing to the people who think it's a little bit too difficult to have to pay artists royalties and so on for their work.  You know, who knows what else is being rushed through.  And Sha, I really appreciated something you've just said, you also said at the meetings, which was about the ‑ that balance between the spiritual and the political, that art is something that we do, you know, for that ‑ you know, that really deep ‑ it is a very personal ‑ ‑ ‑ 

SHA:   Mmm. 

ESTHER:   ‑ ‑ ‑ issue but then it's also a mode of expression that is political.  I would love to hear from you both about the spiritual and the political aspects of your work.  But Sha, while we're talking, how, in terms of your own practice, how do you balance those two aspects, and especially right now at this difficult time?  

SHA:   I mean, for me the process of even when I'm making work, the process of engaging, like, with the ideas, with my concepts, that itself is, in some ways, spiritually satisfying, because I ‑ it's not just the works that I make, it's just not about the politics.  I engage with material, I engage with forms, and then there are moments that I, you know ‑ that I find it really soothing that I have, through art, managed to entertain myself, because when you make artwork there's not just one side of, like, okay, I'm making this artwork and then the result is this, but within the process you ‑ there are thoughts that goes in your mind that you sometimes find funny, you know, like the issue and then you look at the politics of it and you just sit and laugh;  what is going on here?  So ‑ and then through material investigation, it's really ‑ it brings ‑ every time I make an artwork it brings new discoveries and that makes me really, really happy.  That's the part that I enjoy the most.  And then after that to share it and then to voice.  I mean, if you look at my work there is lots of beauty but it is my ‑ I think it is the past 20 years of my presence in Australia within the political discourse and my status has made me to force my politics at the front of it.  So it doesn't mean that there is no enjoyment or there is no beauty or there's no exploration of beauty within my work, but it's ‑ so far I have chosen to put politics in ‑ like to kind of steer it in a way that I could ‑ how do I say ‑ like encounter the political directive that is forced upon, you know, us as a refugee or towards us.  So I'd like to counter that rhetoric and kind of release my, you know, tension and my ‑ yeah.  So that's how I balance it.  It's always ‑ it's always pleasing to make artwork, no matter if it's political or in search of beauty or a form, yeah.  For me ‑ for me the ‑ even the idea of pain and ‑ like, I have come to know that it is there so that you know what happiness are ‑ you really know what real happiness is when you are in, I don't know, in distress or in anxiety.  So then you kind of break them and really try to face them not just through the lens of, like, society, but through your own, you know, strength.  And then you come to a point that you just ‑ it becomes enjoying in some ways.  Not that I'm saying pain is enjoying but it's up to individuals how they come to understand, yeah. 

ESTHER:   Sha, thank you.  Thank you for the way that you've just put that.  The way that you've just described that really deep, you know, what it means personally, the challenge and, I guess, the burden of creating art in any circumstance, let alone extremely difficult ones, and ones where we feel that the ‑ you know, the overriding political context isn't a favourable one, that is something that takes great personal strength.  And it also takes great personal strength to create those ways that mean that you are exploring what's difficult, what's painful, you know, finding that way through those sensitivities.  I think it's ‑ you know, it's an extraordinary undertaking.  And, yeah, it's really good of you to describe it to us in this way because it puts everything that we're talking about ‑ we're talking about it in such abstract ways all year, yeah, it puts it in great perspective.  I have to say I particularly appreciated the way that politicians responded to you and your questions last week, and, as you say, having to kind of, yeah, think differently about, "Okay, well, yes, this is a particular person who has had these experiences.  I've been thinking in a generic politician way.  Well, actually, this is why artists create work."  This is why you as an artist create work and why you're compelled to. 

SHA:   Yeah.  And also, I guess, art ‑ I was listening to Richard's video the other day looking that NAVA. 

ESTHER:   Richard Bell, yes. 

SHA:   Yeah, Richard Bell.  Where he said art must be very powerful whenever the right wing politics take the government or become ‑ forms government, the first thing that they cut was the arts budget because, I guess, they want to stupefy the nation, make them stupid.  So whatever they could do, they just ‑ they do it.  So whatever they want to do, they do it so there's no one to question them.  And I think I can speak from experience that, yeah, if I had gone and become someone to work in the farm or work in a factory ‑ not that I'm saying that those works are bad, but because I have chosen to become an artist ‑ well, at the beginning it was a romantic kind of that I want to make art and beautiful work and sell them or become rich.  But then, as Richard said, similarly to Richard as I understood that I can do more, more ‑ I don't know.  And not that I want to change the world, but maybe in small bits.  But to change myself or to change ‑ in some ways not to change myself, that I can have the strength to kind of stand up to the bully of the powerful through my work. 

ESTHER:   Yep.  Yep. 

SHA:   You know, so ‑ ‑ ‑ 

ESTHER:   Yep. 

SHA:   And that ‑ that strength comes through the art.  Otherwise, if I was a factory worker, what could I think?  Maybe a strike, no, then I would be kicked off the job.  But here I can say anything I like.  I can, you know ‑ as long as it doesn't offend the mass, like, you know.  Make work, and it doesn't matter if it doesn't change at that moment but it kind of ‑ in some ways I'm recording the moment for the future generation or for my community ‑ yeah. 

ESTHER:   Thank you again very much.  I'm going to say bye to you both in just a sec because I can see Nicholas Pickard has joined us on our system we can only have three of us on at the one time.  There is a couple of others who want to have a chat as well but Nadia had her hand up to respond to what Sha had said as well. 

NADIA:   I just wanted to say, Sha, hearing you say all of that reminds me exactly what we're advocating for, and why we're doing this program at all in the first place, is to protect the ability for art to do what art does and what art can do, which is speak strongly to issues, express, you know, voices, and that's exactly what we're trying to enable and protect.  So I think that that's a great thing to have heard you speak on that, particularly in this wrap‑up session to give some context to why we are doing this whole thing in the first place.  So thank you so much.  

ESTHER:   Oh, massive thanks to both of you.  Now, hopefully I'm now going to press the correct sequence of buttons so that you are still joining us but we won't be able to see and hear you.  But thank you so much for joining us just now and also massive thanks for being part of last week's meetings as well.  

NADIA:   Thank you. 

ESTHER:   So I'm going to press some buttons ‑ Leya is pressing buttons because she's much quicker and better at this.  Thank you very much, Leya.  Now, Nicholas Pickard, we're just making you a presenter.  And so hopefully that means that you are happily in front of your mic and camera.  So as you will recall, Nicholas joined us some weeks ago and we had that great conversation about policy and the political adviser life and a range of things.  Nicholas, welcome. 

NICHOLAS:   Hi.  How are you?  

ESTHER:   I'm all right.  How are you?  

NICHOLAS:   Good, thanks. 

ESTHER:   Where are you joining us from today?  

NICHOLAS:   My house in the Northern Beaches of Sydney where there's a bit of building work going on.  Still hear a drill every now and again. 

ESTHER:   Look, that's ‑ yes, I've become very used to the construction industry who are my new best friends. 

NICHOLAS:   Well, the Northern Beaches are the tradie capital of Australia, apparently. 

ESTHER:   We know how important they are to the current political outlook. 

NICHOLAS:   They are everything. 

ESTHER:   They are.  Now, I don't know how much ‑ I had explained to everyone earlier that Nicholas was joining us after another meeting.  I don't know how much of Sha and Nadia's conversation you just heard but I was so struck by the way that Nadia talked about our experiences with politicians and the particular, you know, tactical moves that they take during a meeting, but also Sha speaking as an artist who arrived in Australia as a refugee, who has taken that spiritual and political balance of his work as being terribly personally important, and as a way as an artist to stand up and certainly to stand up against bullying, and that feeling of being bullied by government.  We have spent, you know, the year looking at different tactics, and so on, for that.  How do you see, I guess, some of the impacts of our meetings and online activity next week, what's been some of the outcomes of Arts Day on the Hill for you?  

NICHOLAS:   Look, I think anything that increases that dialogue and engagement with politicians is going to be, you know, central to any of the activity that occurs.  It's never a wasted opportunity when an artist gets in front of a Member of Parliament, especially when that artist, you know, is speaking to their local member because, you know, they need to know (Nicholas), you know, the extraordinary depth of talent across the country in all sorts of areas and regions and understand what that impact is to their local area because at the end of the day they're going to be very locally orientated with ‑ with what they want to achieve as a local MP.  So I think that is going ‑ I think that is one of the great outcomes from a government relations perspective.  So, I mean, having worked in the music space at the moment music artists talking to government is the most effective way of getting their voice heard in a policy sense.  So that's for me the number one top line. 

ESTHER:   Excellent.  We're about to have joining us now Anna Glynn who did organise a meeting with her local.  MP.  And we're just pressing the buttons.  I think I have pressed some buttons and hopefully there may be some buttons for you also to be pressing.  So we're both pressing the buttons.  And you are joining us hopefully in just a sec.  But while Anna is joining us, the amount of engagement that we had on the day, so as well as the meetings that we ran there were 12 meetings that you all facilitated with your MPs.  And can I just say thank you and how fantastic, because something that we really stressed all year and that Nicholas and others told us, is that it's all well and good to meet at Parliament House but to meet locally and have those conversations locally is just so, so important.  And Nicholas, we mentioned earlier to our great, you know, surprise and delight ‑ there is Anna now, to our great surprise and delight there were MPs including Trent Zimmerman, the member for North Sydney ‑ it is just called North Sydney, isn't it. 

NICHOLAS:   It is, yeah. 

ESTHER:   Had done his research on individual artists and had questions to ask.  Which was quite fantastic.  Where are you today. 

ANNA:   In my studio at Shoalhaven.  It's very nice here.  Not raining.  Not as cold as Melbourne. 

ESTHER:   That's great, Anna.  That's really fantastic.  So tell us what you did on Arts Day on the Hill?  

ANNA:  Well, I contacted Fiona Phillips in June.  I treated it a bit like courting, the old‑fashioned way of being polite and, you know, reaching out and ‑ because I didn't want to be too pushy or forceful.  I didn't see that there was going to be anyway to move forward if, you know, I came on like that.  So we eventually got an invitation for Fiona to come up to my studio and visit and Ann Stafford who I didn't know very well but now through this we've become great friends so. 

ESTHER:   Excellent.  Bringing people together.  This is good. 

ANNA:   We worked as a team.  Anne wrote letters to the state and local politicians, and I worked to get Fiona Phillips, our local member up here.  So we worked hard for a few days.  Fiona ‑ it was almost a bit more like a social visit but I think that ‑ I didn't really want to go beyond that at the beginning.  I think that this is just like the start of a conversation with Fiona, and now I feel quite comfortable to contact her office and to raise points that I think she might want to consider supporting or not supporting.  She's very friendly, very personable.  And I also ‑ because we've had so many disasters where we are, you know, the bushfires, the floods, COVID is just another one of a list of things that we've had here.  So I think we were very lucky to get her and I didn't want to be too pushy. 

ESTHER:   I think that sounds like a very wise approach.  Nicholas, how important is it to make that first meeting social?  

NICHOLAS:   That's the key, really.  You know, it's ‑ it's the start of a relationship.  It's not the ending.  You know, and oftentimes dealing with ‑ speaking to a lot of music industry stakeholders and various arts groups, often they think, "Oh, I've got a meeting with so and so and it's going to be the last time I ever meet with them again."  There's a little bit of a sort of a ‑ there's sort of a strange time constraint that they layer on to the pressure of the meeting which is already quite stressful, really.  This is just the start of a conversation.  And I think that from what you've just said you will be able to go back to Fiona whenever issues arise that affect you and your practice and your profession.  And eventually, hopefully, Fiona being an ALP Member of Parliament will be in government.  Then you will have that person ‑ then you will have that person who, you know, is potentially, you know, a backbencher in government or potentially a Minister.  So, I mean, it's all laying the seeds.  The other thing to always remember is that you will have duty Senators as well.  You can now take this to another level.  Each State has their Senators and you will have government Senators that will represent the Shoalhaven.  So that's the next level to engage on a government thing.  But this is the best, best first step. 

ANNA:   I think it was good too because some of the material that NAVA had shared, Esther had shared the Australia Council stats for Gilmour. 

NICHOLAS:   I love that website.  My favourite website. 

ANNA:   I was able to follow up with a thank you email to Fiona.  Because I had mentioned that, so I was able to assist her, which I think is a nice position.  I did notice that when I talked about some of the art things like being a moving ‑ you know, doing moving image, she didn't understand what I was talking about.  So I've been thinking I would like to see if she is available for just a general catch‑up with what's happening in the arts chat so she has a comprehension of the terminology that artists use. 

NICHOLAS:   Absolutely.  And introducing her to other people and other types of artists who are working in different mediums that you know are living in the area as well. 

ESTHER:   In fact, that's a really good point, Anna, is that you can now be in a position to be that conduit.  You've had that meeting, as you say it's like a courting, maybe now you're dating and you want to meet each other ‑ ‑ ‑ 

ANNA:   Send her flowers. 

ESTHER:   Maybe, maybe not.  But, you know, starting to meet each other's friends and let me introduce you to some artists.  You know, here is the Australia Council electorate profiles, here is some stats on the numbers of artists.  Let's make that real, these are people in your electorate who are voting for someone.  And then really kind of building the relationship.  I also want to pick up on something you've just said, Anna, about the language that we use because, yeah, we can ‑ you know, we talked about this a little bit during this year but those like Mish who is on the call today and others who were involved last year will remember that through the day we had this sort of evolution in the way that artists spoke about their practice, you know, at the beginning of the day we realised that using a certain kind of language makes sense among us in the arts community but can be offputting for people in the general public or for politicians, not because it's technical or, you know, that it's focused on specific kind of arts industry matters, but because it can be intimidating.  People can think, "Oh, well, I'm going to use the wrong words and this artist is going to think I'm an idiot or I'm not going to be able to explain it properly."  So it's so important that we also think about what are the different ways to explain our practice, and Mish who is here with us, I just love the way that Mish and Nadia and Sha were saying, well, you know, these are some of the things that are important to me and my practice.  I make work about this.  I do make that crazy feminist work, I like to experiment, I like to push boundaries.  Nicholas, what kinds of advice do you give to artists?  We've talked about this in our ‑ preparing and being a media spokesperson and so on but what sorts of advice do you give to artists when it comes to, yeah, having that conversation when you want to talk about your practice but you don't want to, you know, put someone off, particularly an MP. 

NICHOLAS:   Yeah.  Look, I completely get what that challenge might be because, you know, we all live in our relative bubbles and we have our communities and our culture and our ways of talking with one another.  We develop that shorthand.  Suddenly you get that meeting between an artist and a Member of Parliament.  And that can jar.  That can jar.  And I think the best approach is really to start from the beginning.  The best approach is to simplify and not assume any knowledge whatsoever.  Then you might be suddenly pleasantly surprised, and they will be able to say, "Oh, well, actually, I went to such and such exhibition or such and such show, or I saw this, you know, public art" or things like that.  So I think you will start to find that common ground, or, alternatively, you will find the gaps, and often they're big gaps and that's the sort of stuff that you can start thinking about with follow‑ups over the years as ways to sort of fill those gaps.  I think starting at the beginning but I think it's also really important ‑ and recently I was involved ‑ the chair of APRA AMCOS which is the organisation that I work for, the music organisation, recently just gave a speech to the national press club.  And, you know, I think it's really important that in talking to government that you don't lose your identity speaking as an artist.  So it is a bit of a balance but you can't let, you know ‑ you can't, you know, let that get in the way of a conversation.  So I think starting at the beginning is the easiest. 

ANNA:   I also invited Fiona to open my exhibition when it returns from its tour later in December, and she's agreed to do that. 

NICHOLAS:   Fantastic. 

ANNA:   And the museum haven't had any federal pollies involved in exhibition launches.  I think that's going to be a nice meeting of different performers in the field here, so yeah. 

ESTHER:   Good work.  Good work, Anna.  And I've seen from the chat there that you've already got Carolyn Phillips is volunteering to join you in that meeting.  Ann Stafford says the south coast is embracing the development of artists through the strategic plan for Bomaderry community inclusivity.  Anna is already an amazing artist in our area and widely acknowledged by all of us for her work.  Systemic advocacy works.  Then go Anna.  Didn't expect the instant adulation.  It was interesting to see the images you had shared and taken the time to do that.  Also exactly as you said at the outset of describing this, that it is a relationship that, you know, it can ‑ you know, it's that social extension again, you know, you bring someone into your circle or you think about how the arts ‑ you know "the arts", in the broadest way ‑ structures our social lives.  What happens in the foyers of theatres?  What happens at an opening?  There are so many ways that we've become accustomed to, this year of course has disrupted in some deeply profound ways, but it's not just the language that we take for granted, it's not just the talking to each other and being the sector we take for granted but we do tend to take for granted those platforms of our socialising with one another.  If we can invite MPs all over Australia to be part of that, to have those incidental encounters at an opening, you know, in the foyer of a theatre, at a live music event, if we're extending that social world, then it doesn't just open up those opportunities for casual encounter and, you know, making them part of our conversation, but it also extends our culture.  You know, people are staying on the chat, when Sha was talking about, you know, that oppressive sense of policy at the moment and Wendy Garden points out this is why they're increasing humanities degrees by 113 per cent.  They don't want thinkers.  Andrew says yes/no to critical and creative thinkers.  We've talked about this notion of quiet Australians.  One of the problems that we have that we see so, so much is the division across Australia and across the world but across, you know, Australian culture at the moment.  Some of the best ways for us to bridge that before imagining that we're going to I'd logically change a politician, some of the fundamental ways for us to bridge our social needs and involve them in the everydayness of what we do.  So Anna enormous thanks.  We will say bye to you now.  Leya is going to press the buttons and say bye and I will keep Nicholas for just a sec to talk about some broader next steps and so on for us now.  Because this program ‑ and in about 15 minutes I will look back on each one of those and, you know, really re‑thank speakers and so on.  But Nicholas, the aim of advocacy program leading into Arts Day on the Hill and, of course, Arts Day on the Hill itself, was to connect and skill up a whole bunch of advocates.  As we say in our handbook, not just once‑off and not just in an emergency, not just around the particular day that is Arts Day on the Hill, but it's really important to be able to secure that critical mass, but to be able to do that in an ongoing way.  Hopefully in an ongoing way that helps to preclude the kind of funding emergencies that we've seen in the past but also the way it means those political relationships remain meaningful.  

So given the conversations we've been having all year, you know, in this group, and for those who are here now, what's your best advice for next steps drawing on what we've done and what we have so far, but also looking at what's on the policy horizon at the moment, including a couple of the little surprises of the last week?  

NICHOLAS:   So it's now August and we had the election last May, which means that we're sliding into about the halfway point of this term of government.  So I think it's always good to know where you're at in the political cycle.  So federally, they've really got only sort of 18 to 20 months left of this term which is not actually a very long time.  So you already need to start thinking about, you know ‑ we actually need to start thinking about as a sector what it is that we want to prioritise in the lead‑up to the next election, and what are the things that we want both government and opposition to be talking about as far as priorities for our sector.  

So I think in many ways COVID has been an extraordinary economic, social and cultural leveller in many ways and I think it gives enormous opportunities to reset a lot of conversations.  I think that the appreciation for art, music, literature, film has increased quite substantially.  You know, I think there was a great appreciation that our sector was one of the first hit, and it's going to be one of the hardest to get back up online.  The threat now is that we lose a lot of cultural infrastructure, not the big public cultural infrastructure, I'm talking about the feeding ground, you know, the small galleries, the small live music venues, the small theatres.  And I think this is something that is going to be escalating quite a lot.  Cultural policy at the moment is pretty, you know, fly by the seat of your pants.  Normally we can do a lot more planning.  So that's why it's important to think about the long term out what does post‑COVID ‑ and is there such a thing as post‑COVID ‑ what does the cultural landscape patchwork look like and how do we build it better.  I think certainly from my side of the sector, you know, we often refer to ourselves as the originators of the gig economy.  And we can see what happens to gig workers when things like this occur.  They're at the bottom of the food chain.  And it's just not a sustainable model.  So what is it that we reimagine as far as how artists and creators are remunerated for their work. 

ESTHER:   Yeah.  Absolutely.  I think that's really astute to point out, particularly that moment in the political cycle, because some of the issues that we discuss are, of course, long‑term, we want to see long‑term change and we want to see it sustained.  And sometimes problems can seem, you know, problems and policy priorities can seem so far away in terms of their achievement that you think it's going to take years and years to build that up.  But in terms of the political pragmatics of a situation, the election cycle means a great deal and while in the bureaucracy they're working in the particular slow and steady way, the political cycle means that there is a leapfrogging, there's a piggy backing, there are a lot of opportunities.  Something my colleagues and I have been reflecting on the last little while is that while on the one hand when we look at the policy and funding outcomes for this year just in terms of COVID response, you know, it's ‑ it's hardly been adequate, it's hardly been successful in terms of, you know, the way government understands what's needed and what they've invested.  But equally dismally we're not alone in that.  You know, we look at education, we look at a whole range of other areas, there is, you know, a bit of a pattern of ignoring or undermining a range of sectors, unfortunately.  

But on the plus side, as you've just pointed out, the broader public and media impact that we've had, we've had arts and culture mentioned, you know, in pieces, in media pieces by economists, we've had political and economic journalists put questions to a range of politicians, including the Prime Minister and not in conversations that are about the arts but that are about all the issues more broadly.  And we seem to be in a position where come that next election campaign, issues about artists' practice, the sector and the industry, we can very much expect those to be election issues.  We can very much expect to see that momentum maintained.  

So then for us as individuals in this group, what are some of the practical things that we can do as individuals to make sure that that momentum is maintained and that the relationships are maintained that lead to that?  

NICHOLAS:   Look, I was just ‑ while you were talking I was ‑ I was reflecting on that rather difficult situation that artists always have in ‑ you know, it's all very well to welcome Ministers and MPs into foyers and into the fold and have that close quarter of conversation.  But at the end of the day artists are always going to create stuff that is going to be controversial, that is going to divide.  This is something I think we're yet to really, you know, properly work out as far as important policy priority is concerned.  I think at the moment we're still in a recovery stage.  We're sort of in the post Brandis, post. 

ESTHER:   Fires. 

NICHOLAS:   Ecological climate, COVID.  So we're in a recovery stage.  But people are starting to look at the next stage of what that re‑build looks like.  And I think that's why, you know, it's important to sort of step back, try and put your head above ‑ lift your head up and look at the horizon and try and imagine what it is that is next.  That's why, you know, things like Arts Day on the Hill is so important because they're the beginning of conversations and it was kind of what we were talking about before.  It's the beginning of conversations.  It's never the end.  And it's the start of what you want to try and create out of that engagement.  

ESTHER:   Yeah, absolutely.  Nicholas, thank you.  It's been really fantastic to have you present those few weeks ago but also to have your insights now.  There's obviously a lot of great work for us all in the sector to be doing together.  But I know I speak for everyone in saying thank you for your work and the expertise that you have contributed to this entire program.  So thank you very, very much. 

NICHOLAS:   My pleasure. 

ESTHER:   Now, we are again going to press the buttons.  That means Nicholas is going to vanish.  Let me see now.  Impressing some ‑ there he goes.  The magic of ‑ thank you, Leya, for pressing the buttons more quickly than I could.  And, of course, if you're still there, Nicholas, you're welcome to stick around but totally understand if you've had quite a long day.  Now, I'm just going to scroll back on the chat to make sure that I haven't missed any particular questions and points that people have made.  And then let's reflect on some of the specific outcomes of the day and some of what happens next.  So ‑ yes, thank you again to Ann and to Anna for posting there.  Kate Smith notes that just appreciating what Sha was saying it can be difficult to talk about the spiritual side of making when advocating.  So good to present art as being not so much about selling.  Yeah.  I think that is deeply special.  Another one it's sad... issues during the pandemic.  Yes, it is.  Really need to find consistent and manageable ways to police the government.  Mmm, yes.  Very, very frustrating.  Desiree, disagree with the policy but it's... to think outside of institutions."  Yes, no, I'm sure that ‑ I'm sure that Wendy meant more broadly as well.  We can talk about the danger of attacking universities without assuming that there aren't great thinkers elsewhere.  Absolutely.  And okay still scrolling down.  Nadia and Ann pointing out that there was cake, very important for breaking down barriers.  Sha points out a dinner or lunch meeting helps, certainly when you can extend that hospitality.  That is fantastic.  Ann Stafford asks will there be a group we can follow after this and demonstrate who the advocacy were able to reach?  So as in ‑ demonstrate who the advocates were able to reach.  

Okay, yes, so as we were saying earlier we're going to put out a survey to get a sense of what everyone did on the day so that we can really get a sense of what those broader numbers were.  But on the day we had five meetings that we facilitated and another 12 that you all facilitated.  There were many hundreds of engagements online.  I have just forgotten the exact number.  284, was it Leya?  And several hundred thousand social media impacts more broadly.  There were 21 artists who met with MPs during the day.  And we've got a couple of them here.  So Mish is here, Caroline is here, and, yeah, it was just fantastic to be able to do that with you.  

Anna Cordingley says hello.  Her experience on Wednesday the 12th was full of extremes for context. ... not particularly sensitive to the arts sector.  National Party demanding a softening of the government policy on university fee structures to preference humanities was unexpected and came on the 11th thrilling me completely.  Me too, Anna, wasn't that great news.  In the next moment Dr Anne Webster MP stood me up in order to meet with Bridget Mackenzie a member who is on the record to have shifted resources from us.  Remind me where you are?  I have spent some good time up there.  You're in Natimuk, of course, you are, being one of the great arts capitals of Australia, where ‑ yes, it is.  Anybody who doesn't know about Natimuk you need to Google right now and get yourself over there at the earliest opportunity.  Extraordinary range of artists but also this fascinating mix between artists and equally adventurous mountain climbers because of a mountain just near there.  There is Nati fringe.  I'm assuming it's not a fringe this year for all the obvious reasons.  That is seriously one of the most magnificent art weekends you can have, that deep sense of community and connectedness.  Late 2021 will be the next Nati fringe.  Always an excellent experience. 

So Leya has just pointed out 285 conversations and the potential social media reach of 245,000, nearly 246,000.  A number of things have come out of it already.  So as Nadia said there were MPs who asked for specific follow‑ups of documents which we've provided.  There is also very likely to be some kind of Parliamentary inquiry if we watch the web page for the standing committee on communications and the arts, there is very likely to be inquiry into the impact of COVID‑19 on the arts and the government response.  And that's going to be exceptionally important to make sure we can all contribute to that, but also the entire Parliament is taking it seriously and those committee members are able to ask some good forensic questions and commission reports and do all of that work.  Thanks, Anna, for pasting the link to the Nati fringe there.  And of course as I've been saying all year one of the most important ways as a group to stay together is to become a member of NAVA which starts from as little as $7.50 a month because NAVA is going to be looking in many, many ways at continuing the momentum of this group, looking at different programs and materials.  Thank you to Leya for posting that link to membership.  And now I'm just going to open up the advocacy program again so I can say some thank yous.  While I'm doing that, just in the 15 minutes we have left, please in the chat list any questions that you've got for me so that we can cover them between now and 5.30.  

So first of all, it's a massive thanks to Leya Reid who is NAVA's communications and advocacy manager who has just been extraordinary and, you know, just so shrewd and clever with all of this.  And, you know, it's just been ‑ it's been wonderful to work with you, Leya, so thank you.  Enormous thanks to the entire NAVA team for all the work that everyone has done on this program.  And also thanks to Daniel Besen, a philanthropist who has made donation to NAVA for last year's, this year's and next year's Arts Day on the Hill program so that we're able to continue and really build on that momentum next year.  Nadia I haven't met with Trent yet.  Just the emails we've exchanged so far.  I look forward to seeing him in the future. 

I also want to thank everyone of the speakers in the program.  Again, they were Alex Marsden, she is here with us this evening.  Hello Alex from ‑ national director of the Australian Museums and Galleries Association, also Anne Robertson who is the executive Director of the Public Galleries Association of Victoria and also a member of the National Public Galleries Alliance.  This is not easy for you to see.  Let me zoom in.  We then had Nadeena Dixon and Selena de Carvalho reflecting on last year's Arts Day on the Hill so you can bet this time next year we will be grabbing some of you to join for a session like that to reflect on what this year's was like.  Then Nadeena Dixon and Wesley Enoch, thank you to both of them for the First Nations advocacy week.  And then, of course, we've had the ‑ each of our four weeks reflecting as, you know, a Q&A with a politician, and JA, of course, was also ‑ also met with us on the day, and he and I speaking of next meetings have been playing phone tag ever since.  JA is someone who approaches his work and meetings in ways that seem very casual, very offhand, where ‑ and he's a bit of a ‑ he's just this larrikin type Aussie bloke.  When it comes to follow‑ups, he is one of the most business‑like, focused politicians I've ever come across.  So it's an important note there, important lesson to us all to not underestimate politicians.  They're very good at their jobs.  So he's extremely keen to follow up on some of the things that were discussed at our meetings around art and disability, and things that he can pursue.  And so we will be having that conversation and everyone who met with JA, and all of you, really, I encourage everyone to get in touch with all the politicians here that we're about to discuss, and say hi.  And thank them and continue the conversation.  And then also Zoe McKenzie and Darren Rudd on that day as well.  Just seeing the notes there on the chat.  Yes, it is, awesome.  Next year's is secured with philanthropic funding.  Thank you, Larissa, we've got to be able to continue that.  That was fantastic.  Anna Glynn is saying yes his office replied straight away when invited him to the studio.  Really great.  Then we went into understanding policy development with John Daley from the Grattan Institute.  Thank you, John.  John has now stood down as CEO of the Grattan Institute.  Really great succession plan there with Danielle Wood as CEO.  She's such a clear and articulate thinker.  I'm going to look forward to following the Grattan Institute's work.  Dr Jackie Bailey on those global comparisons, really fantastic to ‑ because she had done so much work and obviously through her consultancy and they're doing some work with the Australia Council now which is fantastic.  And Mike Mrdak, big thank you to Mike.  Again, I was just chuffed that he was involved at all.  He gave us so many fantastic insights.  And then, of course, wrapping up with Maria Vamvakinou who was also an extremely focused, attentive co‑chair of the Parliamentary Friendship Group and some fantastic follow‑ups with her since that time.  Understanding the media.  It was fantastic to have Michaela Boland and George Megalogenis just to really get into what makes news.  How does arts and politics and broader issues connect.  Massive thanks to both of them.  And then, of course, as we were saying earlier, the danger of political co‑option.  I thought it was generous of Abdul Abdullah and Jane but particularly for Abdul Abdullah given what a traumatic time that was to speak in such detail about that.  Anne has got to head off to family in the mountains.  Great to see you, see you soon.  Then the Q&A with Adam Bandt.  He was so forensically specific, wasn't he.  Here is how you shoe horn people into ‑ shoe horn politicians into bypassing a campaign you might want to be launching.  That was super useful.  Then understanding the politics.  Nicholas Pickard.  Thank you again, Nicholas.  And Mark Textor.  I thought it was fascinating to have those different political perspectives of Nicholas and Mark but also taking us through the trajectories to how they got to where they are, and then telling us in very pragmatic terms the particular focus that they've taken, and also the relationship between data, polling, you know, a range of different kinds of advisory approaches.  And then, of course, Helen O'Neill, how to meet, yes, that was super useful.  Is Helen with us this evening?  No, she's not.  But big thank you to Helen.  And then, of course, all of us.  So it is enormous and massive thanks to all of you.  There are 1200 and something people who registered for the NAVA Advocacy Program and people have come and gone as has been most practical and most useful.  Daniel Besen is a complete star.  I will pass that on.  It has indeed been extraordinary.  Yeah, I've just been, yeah, so delighted to be able to do this together.  Thank you, Adam.  And, yeah, yeah.  That's the thing, you can keep checking back in because the vodcasts are there and the transcripts and so on.  

Felicity says thank you.  Fantastic.  Could NAVA now with Penny B ‑ don't call Penelope Penny she can't stand that ‑ she is our acting CEO from Friday.  Can she partner with an alliance of all the guilds and associations and their members to articulate a new cultural strategy and put it to government.  I think there will be a lot of that kind of cooperation happening in a range of different ways.  So I think we can absolutely look forward to that really great work.  Particularly one of Penelope's really strong clear focuses in the next while is also about the strengthening and the revision of the NAVA Code of Practice.  We talk about policy in different ways and there's federal government, state, local government policy that affects us all but, of course, best practice and the ways that we articulate that and the ways that we uphold that are also a very important way of making sure that artists can sustain careers, that the sector can survive and thrive, and that we have, you know, a world of art making and art experiencing that enriches all of us.  So that's also super dooper important.  

Now, somebody mentioned earlier ‑ and please let me know in the chat ‑ some of you mentioned earlier the connections you've made with each other through this.  And I am just delighted that at least one of those resulted in an MP meeting that you did together.  So if there are people in this group that you've wanted to connect with, you know that you can click on the attendee's list and send someone a private message.  You don't have to do it on the chat but please use this opportunity right now if you want to ask someone for contact details or ways to stay in touch or you want to get to know their practice, please use this opportunity right now to connect to that person.  And make sure that you have got that opportunity.  So the way to do that is if you just click on someone's name in the attendees' list.  I'm assuming you can see what I can see as well as the chat.  But you can just click and then select private message ‑ or what is it called ‑ I'm just clicking on one of you ‑ private chat.  At least I'm very much hoping that that works for you as it also works for me at this end.  But please, yeah, take that opportunity to do that.  

And I guess most importantly as we've seen throughout this whole year, there are all sorts of issues that compel us to be stronger advocates.  Advocacy can be and should be a simple and as straightforward as being yourself, extending that social sphere into the political, supporting each other because, of course, this takes its toll when the political situation isn't favourable.  To, you know, draw those links and connections among all of these groups in the ways that make sense for you to prioritise.  Do go back with the guides here and do some of the activities together with others, you know.  Do a bit of that role play.  Talk about how you talk about your work.  Have a look at different kinds of advocacy strategies maybe you want to make in that self‑critical way, your own personal advocacy strategy using all the different tools that we have to hand.  You know, using emotion, using data, you know, using what you've got.  Here again is my super dooper very brief history of arts policy in Australia.  What can we get out of, you know, these moves and what's happening politically in Australia at the moment.  Not forgetting, of course, as has been mentioned a couple of times, the Australia Council's Electorate Profiles Tool.  It is so useful.  It's so very, very useful.  Dip into that.  Choose your electorate.  See what comes up.  And you can, you know, maintain those relationships.  And then, of course, using The NAVA Advocacy Toolkit, it's on the website in a range of different ways, and choosing for yourself what do you want to do next?  This has been only the beginning for our work together.  And you might only have small amounts of time or you might really want to get into something big.  Whether you are engaging socially, whether you want to do something that is a little bit more activist and stay in touch with politicians and, you know, and Senators, as Nicholas pointed out.  Or maybe you want to have some of that ongoing citizen level, civic level engagement.  You can find out what's going on in politics this week, if Parliament were sitting, by looking at what's on the agenda.  You can look at inquiries that are accepting submissions and contribute.  For example, at the moment the government is looking for feedback on that education ‑ there's an exposure draft out at the moment ‑ bill.  You can keep staying in touch with what NAVA is doing and advocating for. 

Anna Glynn points out that self‑reflection in a big way is going to be important, and there are also cools and guides on the NAVA website about exactly that.  You know, what are the ways in which we ask ourselves questions to reflect on our practice.  That is so enormously, enormously important.  

So everyone from me, really, really heartfelt thanks to all of you.  I have found this so invigorating to be able to spend each week through what has been an incredibly difficult year for all of us.  To connect with each other.  To be emboldened by each other, to really invigorate each other and realise each one of us is so incredibly important.  How fantastic Larissa has got her local MP coming to visit her next week.  Very good.  Vegan recipes to charm and disarm.  That is absolutely perfect, Larissa, as we say, you know, in the Greek culture that motion of hospitality, you extend, you know, you create that offer, you create a sense of a mutual obligation and trust.  There's almost a contract that emerges, who is the guest and who is the host and what will happen next time.  How you make best use of that engagement.  Politics fundamentally is about people, it's about how we express our values and about the world that we want to live in.  And fundamentally, it's about empowering ourselves to realise that we do have a say in the decisions that affect our lives, and that as individuals, but also as a big distributed group across Australia we can do great things together.  

So thank you everyone.  Please stay connected with NAVA so that advocacy of all of us can be strengthened.  Together, let's work towards sustaining and inspiring the arts, let us build a contemporary arts that is ambitious and fair.  Thank you so very, very much everyone.  

(End)