ESTHER:  I'm Esther Anatolitis.  I'm the executive director of NAVA.  And I am on the lands of the Boon Wurrung and Woiwurrung people of the Kulin Nation, also called Melbourne.  It's a very grey day today which, of course, makes it the perfect weather for getting together with everyone and talking about a whole range of things.

This is the final of our 18 weeks together through the NAVA Advocacy Program.  We have had such extraordinary time together finding ways to skill up in advocacy, talking about the key issues in the arts at the moment.  Looking at how policy is made, looking at media engagement and that aspect of advocacy.  And then, of course, political engagement and heading into that national day of advocacy focus, Arts Day on the Hill, which was last Wednesday, the 12th of August.  

So today, let's look back on this year, this bizarre, disrupted pandemic year, first of all, I hope everyone is happy and safe and comfortable where you are, and that everyone is healthy. We're going to look back on those sessions.  We're going to talk about Arts Day on the Hill last week and we're going to hear from Nadia Odlum, who has just said hi to everyone from Gadigal land. We're also going to hear from Sha Sarwari, and hear from artists who took part in Arts Day on the Hill. We're also going to be joined by Nicholas Pickard, who presented a few weeks ago.  Nicholas is the Director of Public Affairs at APRA AMCOS and is a former policy adviser to state and federal Labor Governments, including federally at the time of writing the national cultural policy. So, he will be back to offer, you know, a bit of that political reflection as well on the advocacy year and on Arts Day on the Hill in general.  

I’m going to invite Nadia to join.

ESTHER:  Hello, Nadia, how are you?  

NADIA:   I'm well, thanks, how are you?  

ESTHER:   Ah, I am good. So tell me, how was Arts Day on the Hill for you?  

NADIA:   It was really fascinating.  I think particularly I enjoyed the meetings in with the MPs.  Not that we really said very much as the artists' advocates apart from introducing ourselves but it felt interesting to be at the table and to be present for that, even as like just a ‑ you know, a real face of arts industry sitting there, you know, rather than any of the conversations being had ‑ seeming to be directed towards very abstract like who are these people sort of thing.  I felt like that was the value of being in on that meeting.  But then the personal value for me was also just watching and seeing how the politicians framed things or tried to guide the conversation.  And also watching you, Esther, and seeing how you guided the conversation in various ways as well. 

ESTHER:   Well, okay.  Tell us more specifically then about both of those.  The politicians first.  Tell us about which meetings you went to, and what were they like?  How was it maybe different to what you expected or maybe exactly what you expected?  

NADIA:   So I was in a meeting with Trent Zimmerman, and the shadow Minister for the Arts Labor. 

ESTHER:   Tony Burke. 

NADIA:   Tony seemed to be very passionate and strong advocate for the arts and for creating arts policy.  Of course, being not in government at the moment, it's ‑ you know, I kept keeping in my mind that it's easier for him to say those sorts of things, not being someone who's then going to turn around and be like, "Well, where is it?"  But that was, you know, it was great the way he spoke about it made me think, oh, well, you would get my vote.  But then when we came to be then talking to Trent Zimmerman who of course is actually in government at the moment, what I was fascinated to watch with you, Esther, in particular, was I felt that your approach really changed from when you were talking to Tony to when you were talking to Trent.  And it became much more focused on specific things and, you know, not letting the conversation be, I guess, too general or washy.  In fact, you know, there were points where you were quite specifically being to him, "Actually, I had a meeting with so and so and we delivered a four‑page documents with statistics and recommendations.  And I can forward that on to you after this conversation."

ESTHER:   Yeah.

NADIA:   I guess for me it felt like the ‑ when you were talking with the shadow Minister there was a lot of relationship building that was going on and making sure that they ‑ you both knew who each other were and they new your priorities and that, you know, they were articulating what they could do for you.  So it was sort of like a relationship building thing.  And that was the way I was perceiving it.  Then when talking to someone who was in government, it felt like it was much more about... also looking at really sort of achievable and actionable asks. Because they actually do have power to do things.  

ESTHER:   Yeah.  Precisely.  I mean, with ‑ you know, when we meet people in opposition, yeah, it's always fantastic to hear them exactly as Tony Burke did, to really outline with some passion, you know, what they believe in.  And we want them to sustain that passion.  We want them to talk to other people about it, we want them to develop policy so that, you know, when it comes to election time, they are actually going to make those part of the platform, and because I think ‑ I think he ‑ said this in that conversation or something else recently, the whole kind of, well, you know, we didn't win the election, if we had, blah, blah, blah.  And I know that Labor are ‑ you know, were very disappointed, obviously, because of that whole poll situation and, you know, having almost expected to win and having put so many different policies together.  

So from our point of view we don't want any party to think, "Oh, well, we lost because of having all these great policies", we actually want them to sustain the great ‑ you know, what's good about the policies.  And also maintaining that momentum because it's great to be in Parliament but it's probably ‑ you know, it's probably less fun to be in opposition.  And so, you know, we want them to get ‑ you know, to stay motivated, engaged.  And then, yeah, absolutely, when a member of government says, "Oh, look, that's really interesting", to be able to straight away say, "Oh, and I can provide you with some evidence so that when you follow up this conversation, you've got the stuff to hand."  And, of course, Trent and I have emailed about that and I have sent that information.  

NADIA:   Mmm. 

ESTHER:   You know, it's so important, as we've been saying in our preparation, that meetings have a purpose. We're meeting with you today for this reason and this is the kind of outcome, yeah, that we'd like.  Now, tell us also about Trent, because something that really impressed me was the preparation that Trent had done. 

NADIA:   Yeah.  So it was ‑ it was actually really nice, and I was quite surprised and delighted by the fact that he had gone away and done a little bit of research on each of the artists that he knew he would be in a meeting with. He was ‑ he said, "Oh and I've seen from your website that you make really big sculptures.  How have you been managing that during COVID time?"  I was like, "Oh. Well, thank you."  So that was ‑ yeah, I was impressed by that.  And even just from something that would be good for me to remember any time that I'm in a meeting with someone, him doing that put me on his side very quickly, you know, and it very much was a very good tactic of, you know, just of respect and relationship forming with someone that you're in a meeting with.  So having little things that you can throw out that you know about them and it showed that you've taken an interest is really good. 

ESTHER:   That is a very good observation in terms of a political tactic which Rob McCredie has rightly identified as the old - charm and disarm.  When you're in a brief meeting with someone and you've never met them before and also, you know, you might know that artists have a reputation for being, you know, direct, radical, maybe they're going to put you in a position of having to think differently about your preconceptions and, you know, challenge you to, perhaps, get into a place that you weren't necessarily going to be comfortable to do.  Yeah, one of the most important, you know, ways to extend respect or to charm and disarm is to reflect back that you have actually taken the time to find something out and to be able to raise that in a context.  Something that never ceases to amaze me about politicians.  I swear they all go to like politicians school for this, is their, like, amazing ability to remember everyone's name around the table. 

NADIA:   Mmm. 

ESTHER:   I don't know how many times I've gone into a meeting with a Lord Mayor, a Premier and there will be a handful of us or there will be 15 of us, and, like, obviously they've been given some notes but they know who everyone is. And use the name constantly.  And Nadia, when someone says Nadia, you know, Nadia, I really appreciated, Nadia, what you have to say about that, it does put us in a different mindset. 

And then, of course, your day started out with some media as well.  Tell us about that?  

NADIA:   Yeah.  I did a little interview on FBI Radio. So I'd ‑ I'd done the little ‑ the media advocacy training with you guys leading up to that, which was fantastic, and was just really left me feeling quite empowered. I got the interview by ‑ I'm friends with Anna May Kirk who is a producer for arts and culture on FBI radio.  And just reached out to her.  And I had been ‑ last time we'd had coffee I had been telling her about the NAVA advocacy courses anyway and asked her if I thought there would be any room for FBI to do any coverage on it and sort of pitched it to them focusing on the ‑ you know, the advocacy training and how great that's been as part of sort of skilling up the sector.  I thought that would appear to the sort of demographic that listens to FBI as well.

ESTHER:   Excellent.  And I am a big fan of FBI, as many of you know.  I was part of the broadcast trial that secured its full‑time licence, more than 20 years ago, and, yeah, have been deeply committed to community broadcasting for a very, very long time.  I just think it is ‑ yeah.  So enormously, enormously important.  

Now, Sha Sarwari has just joined as well. Hello. 

SHA:   Hello. Hi Esther. Hi Nadia.  

ESTHER:  And Sha was also at several of the meetings on the day.  So tell us, Sha, what it was like from your point of view?  

Sha:  I think for me it's always good to be able to find a platform and to exercise my ideas and my thoughts.  It was definitely a good experience and empowering experience to be able to talk face‑to‑face to the legislator that make decisions for us but we are not in the picture and they don't even know the condition of artists, what they go through.  Yeah, it was ‑ I would definitely do it again and again.  And here I engage with the councillors and talk to them about the importance of art and particularly in this time ‑ there's no way to express ‑ everyone is like forced hiding.  So it's very important in terms of broad, also politically because as we are hiding the government is kind of sneaking policies/legislations that we don't know.  So it's good to have that direct face‑to‑face, you know, have access to the politicians in some ways to tell them what we are going through and what should be done.  Yeah. 

ESTHER:   That is a very important point that you've just made which is yes, while we are in hiding, while we are in our homes especially those in Victoria who are very much in their homes, there are all sorts of things that the government is taking advantage of and sneaking through.  We've talked a bit over this period about ‑ and there has been some things recently as well ‑ about education, about obviously workplace relations and the privileging and the deprioritising of certain workers, whether they're casual, whether people are on working visas because they are here from overseas, then also, of course ‑ so on education, fees, but also the exclusion of universities from any kinds of support, the exclusion of local government from any kind of support through the whole pandemic, what we've seen in the last few days and late last week, these announcements about copyright reforms and the ‑ really just the kowtowing to the people who think it's a little bit too difficult to have to pay artists licensing royalties and so on for their work.  You know, who knows what else is being rushed through.  And Sha, I really appreciated something you've just said, you also said at the meetings, which was about the ‑ that balance between the spiritual and the political, that art is something that we do, you know, for that ‑ you know, that really deep ‑ it is a very personal issue but then it's also a mode of expression that is political.  I would love to hear from you both about the spiritual and the political aspects of your work.  But Sha, while we're talking, how, in terms of your own practice, how do you balance those two aspects, and especially right now at this difficult time?  

SHA:   For me the process of even when I'm making work, the process of engaging, like, with the ideas, with my concepts, that itself is, in some ways, spiritually satisfying, because I ‑ it's not just the works that I make, it's just not about the politics.  I engage with material, I engage with forms, and then there are moments that I, you know ‑ that I find it really soothing that I have, through art, managed to entertain myself, because when you make artwork there's not just one side of, like, okay, I'm making this artwork and then the result is this, but within the process you ‑ there are thoughts that goes in your mind that you sometimes find funny, you know, like the issue and then you look at the politics of it and you just sit and laugh;  what is going on here?  So ‑ and then through material investigation, it's really ‑ it brings ‑ every time I make an artwork it brings new discoveries and that makes me really, really happy.  That's the part that I enjoy the most.  And then if you look at my work there is lots of beauty but it is the past 20 years of my presence in Australia within the political discourse and my status has made me to force my politics at the front of it.  So it doesn't mean that there is no enjoyment or there is no beauty or there's no exploration of beauty within my work, but it's ‑ so far I have chosen to put politics in ‑ like to kind of steer it in a way that I could ‑ how do I say ‑ like encounter the political directive that is forced upon us as a refugee or towards us.  So I'd like to counter that rhetoric and kind of release my tension. 

ESTHER:   Sha, thank you. The way that you've just described that really deep, you know, what it means personally, the challenge and, I guess, the burden of creating art in any circumstance, let alone extremely difficult ones, and ones where we feel that the ‑ you know, the overriding political context isn't a favourable one, that is something that takes great personal strength.  And it also takes great personal strength to create those ways that mean that you are exploring what's difficult, what's painful, you know, finding that way through those sensitivities.  I think it's ‑ you know, it's an extraordinary undertaking.  And, yeah, it's really good of you to describe it to us in this way because it puts everything that we're talking about ‑ we're talking about it in such abstract ways all year, yeah, it puts it in great perspective.  I have to say I particularly appreciated the way that politicians responded to you and your questions last week, and, as you say, having to kind of, yeah, think differently about, "Okay, well, yes, this is a particular person who has had these experiences.  I've been thinking in a generic politician way.  Well, actually, this is why artists create work."  This is why you as an artist create work and why you're compelled to. 

SHA:   I was listening to Richard's video the other day looking that NAVA has produced. 

ESTHER:   Richard Bell, yes. 

SHA:   Yeah, Richard Bell.  Where he said art must be very powerful whenever the right-wing politics - the first thing that they cut was the arts budget because, I guess, they want to stupefy the nation, make them stupid.  So whatever they could do, they just ‑ they do it.  So whatever they want to do, they do it so there's no one to question them.  And I think I can speak from experience that, yeah, if I had gone and become someone to work in the farm or work in a factory ‑ not that I'm saying that those works are bad, but because I have chosen to become an artist ‑ well, at the beginning it was a romantic kind of that I want to make art and beautiful work and sell them or become rich.  But then, as Richard said, similarly to Richard as I understood that I can do more. Not that I want to change the world, but maybe in small bits.  But to change myself or to change ‑ in some ways not to change myself, that I can have the strength to kind of stand up to the bully of the powerful through my work. 

ESTHER:   Yep. 

SHA:   And that ‑ that strength comes through the art.  Otherwise, if I was a factory worker, what could I think?  Maybe a strike, no, then I would be kicked off the job.  But here I can say anything I like.  I can, you know ‑ as long as it doesn't offend the mass, and it doesn't matter if it doesn't change at that moment but in some ways I'm recording the moment for the future generation or for my community ‑ yeah. 

ESTHER:   Thank you again very much.  I'm going to say bye to you both in just a sec because I can see Nicholas Pickard has joined us. Nicholas, welcome. 

NICHOLAS:   Hi.

ESTHER:   Where are you joining us from today?  

NICHOLAS:   My house in the Northern Beaches of Sydney.

ESTHER:   Now, I don't know how much ‑ I had explained to everyone earlier that Nicholas was joining us after another meeting.  I don't know how much of Sha and Nadia's conversation you just heard but I was so struck by the way that Nadia talked about our experiences with politicians and the particular, you know, tactical moves that they take during a meeting, but also Sha speaking as an artist who arrived in Australia as a refugee, who has taken that spiritual and political balance of his work as being terribly personally important, and as a way as an artist inn the sense to stand up and certainly to stand up against bullying, and that feeling of being bullied by government.  We have spent, you know, the year looking at different tactics, and so on, for that.  How do you see, I guess, some of the impacts of our meetings and online activity next week, what's been some of the outcomes of Arts Day on the Hill for you?  

NICHOLAS:   Look, I think anything that increases that dialogue and engagement with politicians is going to be, you know, central to any of the activity that occurs.  It's never a wasted opportunity when an artist gets in front of a Member of Parliament, especially when that artist, you know, is speaking to their local member because, you know, they need to know, you know, the extraordinary depth of talent across the country in all sorts of areas and regions and understand what that impact is to their local area because at the end of the day they're going to be very locally orientated with ‑ what they want to achieve as a local MP.  So I think that is going ‑ I think that is one of the great outcomes from a government relations perspective.  So, I mean, having worked in the music space at the moment music artists talking directly to government is the most effective way of getting their voice heard in a policy sense.  So that's for me the number one top line. 

ESTHER:   Excellent.  We're about to have joining us now Anna Glynn who did organise a meeting with her local MP. And can I just say thank you and how fantastic, because something that we really stressed all year and that Nicholas and others told us, is that it's all well and good to meet at Parliament House but to meet locally and have those conversations locally is just so, so important.  And Nicholas, we mentioned earlier that to our great, you know, surprise and delight – there were MPs including Trent Zimmerman, the member for North Sydney ‑ it is just called North Sydney, isn't it. 

NICHOLAS:   It is, yeah North Sydney. 

ESTHER:   Had done his research on individual artists and had questions to ask.  Which was quite fantastic.  But Anna, where are you today? 

ANNA:   In my studio at Shoalhaven.  It's very nice here.  Not raining.

ESTHER:   That's great, Anna.  That's really fantastic.  So tell us what you did on Arts Day on the Hill?  

ANNA:  Well, I contacted Fiona Phillips in June.  I treated it a bit like courting, the old‑fashioned way of being polite and, you know, reaching out and ‑ because I didn't want to be too pushy or forceful.  I didn't see that there was going to be anyway to move forward if, I came on like that.  So, we eventually got an invitation for Fiona to come up to my studio and visit and Ann Stafford who I didn't know very well but now through this we've become great friends so. 

ESTHER:   Excellent. 

ANNA:   We worked as a team.  Anne wrote letters to the state and local politicians, and I worked to get Fiona Phillips, our local member up here.  So, we worked hard for a few days.  Fiona ‑ it was almost a bit more like a social visit but I think that ‑ I didn't really want to go beyond that at the beginning.  I think that this is just like the start of a conversation with Fiona, and now I feel quite comfortable to contact her office and to raise points that I think she might want to consider supporting or not supporting.  She's very friendly, very personable.  And I also ‑ because we've had so many disasters where we are, you know, the bushfires, the floods, COVID is just another one of a list of things that we've had here.  So I think we were very lucky to get her and I didn't want to be too pushy. 

ESTHER:   I think that sounds like a very wise approach.  Nicholas, how important is it to make that first meeting social?  

NICHOLAS:   That's the key, really.  You know, it's ‑ it's the start of a relationship.  It's not the ending.  You know, and oftentimes dealing with ‑ speaking to a lot of music industry stakeholders and various arts groups, often they think, "Oh, I've got a meeting with so and so and it's going to be the last time I ever meet with them again."  There's a little bit of a sort of a ‑ there's sort of a strange time constraint that they layer on to the pressure of the meeting which is already quite stressful, really.  This is just the start of a conversation.  And I think that from what you've just said you will be able to go back to Fiona whenever issues arise that affect you and your practice and your profession.  And eventually, hopefully, Fiona being an ALP Member of Parliament will be in government. So, then you will have that person ‑ then you will have that person who, you know, is potentially, you know, a backbencher in government or potentially a Minister.  So, I mean, it's all laying the seeds.  The other thing to always remember is that you will have duty Senators as well.  You can now take this to another level.  Each State has their Senators and you will have government Senators that will represent the Shoalhaven.  So that's the next level to engage on a government thing.  But this is the best, best first step. 

ANNA:   I think it was good too because some of the material that NAVA had shared, Esther had shared the Australia Council stats for Gilmour. 

ANNA:   I was able to follow up with a thank you email to Fiona.  Because I had mentioned that, so I was able to assist her. I did notice that when I talked about some of the art things like being a moving ‑ you know, doing moving image, she didn't understand what I was talking about.  So, I've been thinking I would like to see if she is available for just a general catch‑up with what's happening in the arts chat so she has a comprehension of the terminology that artists use. 

NICHOLAS:   Absolutely.  And introducing her to other people and other types of artists who are working in different mediums that you know are living in the area as well. 

ESTHER:   In fact, that's a really good point, Anna, is that you can now be in a position to be that conduit.  You've had that meeting, as you say it's like a courting, maybe now you're dating and you want to meet each other's friends and let me introduce you to some artists.  You know, here is the Australia Council electorate profiles, here is some stats on the numbers of artists.  Let's make that real, these are people in your electorate who are voting for someone.  And then really kind of building the relationship.  I also want to pick up on something you've just said, Anna, about the language that we use because, yeah, we can ‑ you know, we talked about this a little bit during this year but those like Mish Grigor who is on the call today and others who were involved last year will remember that through the day we had this sort of evolution in the way that artists spoke about their practice, you know, at the beginning of the day we realised that using a certain kind of language makes sense among us in the arts community but can be off-putting for people in the general public or for politicians, not because it's technical or, you know, that it's focused on specific kind of arts industry matters, but because it can be intimidating.  People can think, "Oh, well, I'm going to use the wrong words and this artist is going to think I'm an idiot or I'm not going to be able to explain it properly."  So it's so important that we also think about what are the different ways to explain our practice, and Mish who is here with us, I just love the way that Mish and Nadia and Sha were saying, well, you know, these are some of the things that are important to me and my practice.  I make work about this.  I do make that crazy feminist work, I like to experiment, I like to push boundaries.  Nicholas, what kinds of advice do you give to artists?  We've talked about this in our ‑ preparing and being a media spokesperson and so on but what sorts of advice do you give to artists when it comes to, yeah, having that conversation when you want to talk about your practice but you don't want to, you know, put someone off, particularly an MP. 

NICHOLAS:   Yeah.  Look, I completely get what that challenge might be because, you know, we all live in our relative bubbles and we have our communities and our culture and our ways of talking with one another.  We develop that shorthand.  Suddenly you get that meeting between an artist and a Member of Parliament.  And that can jar.  That can jar.  And I think the best approach is really to start from the beginning.  The best approach is to simplify and not assume any knowledge whatsoever.  Then you might be suddenly pleasantly surprised, and they will be able to say, "Oh, well, actually, I went to such and such exhibition or such and such show, or I saw this, you know, public art" or things like that.  So I think you will start to find that common ground, or, alternatively, you will find the gaps, and often they're big gaps and that's the sort of stuff that you can start thinking about with follow‑ups over the years as ways to sort of fill those gaps.  I think starting at the beginning but I think it's also really important ‑ and recently I was involved ‑ the chair of APRA AMCOS which is the organisation that I work for, the music organisation, recently just gave a speech to the national press club.  And, you know, I think it's really important that in talking to government that you don't lose your identity speaking as an artist.  So, it is a bit of a balance but you can't let get in the way of a conversation.  So, I think starting at the beginning is the easiest. 

ANNA:   I also invited Fiona to open my exhibition when it returns from its tour later in December, and she's agreed to do that. 

NICHOLAS:   Fantastic. 

ANNA:   And the museum haven't had any federal pollies involved in exhibition launches.  I think that's going to be a nice meeting of different performers in the field here, so. 

ESTHER:   Good work.  Good work, Anna.  And I've seen from the chat there that you've already got Carolyn Phillips is volunteering to join you in that meeting.  Ann Stafford says the south coast is embracing the development of artists through the strategic plan for Bomaderry community inclusivity.  Anna is already an amazing artist in our area and widely acknowledged by all of us for her work. It was interesting to see the images you had shared and taken the time to do that.  Also exactly as you said at the outset of describing this, that it is a relationship that, you know, it can ‑ you know, it's that social extension again, you know, you bring someone into your circle or you think about how the arts ‑ you know "the arts", in the broadest way ‑ structures our social lives.  What happens in the foyers of theatres?  What happens at an opening?  There are so many ways that we've become accustomed to, this year of course has disrupted in some deeply profound ways, but it's not just the language that we take for granted, it's not just the talking to each other and being the sector we take for granted but we do tend to take for granted those platforms of our socialising with one another.  If we can invite MPs all over Australia to be part of that, to have those incidental encounters at an opening, you know, in the foyer of a theatre, at a live music event, if we're extending that social world, then it doesn't just open up those opportunities for casual encounter and, you know, making them part of our conversation, but it also extends our culture.  You know, people are staying on the chat, when Sha was talking about, you know, that oppressive sense of policy at the moment and Wendy Garden points out this is why they're increasing humanities degrees by 113 per cent.  They don't want thinkers.  Andrew says yes/no to critical and creative thinkers.  We've talked about this notion of quiet Australians.  One of the problems that we have that we see so, so much is the division across Australia and across the world but across, you know, Australian culture at the moment.  Some of the best ways for us to bridge that before imagining that we're going to I'd logically change a politician, some of the fundamental ways for us to bridge our social needs and involve them in the everydayness of what we do.  So, Anna enormous thanks.  Bye to you now.  Leya is going to press the buttons and say bye and I will keep Nicholas for just a sec to talk about some broader next steps and so on for us now.  Because this program ‑ and in about 15 minutes I will look back on each one of those and, you know, really re‑thank speakers and so on.  But Nicholas, the aim of advocacy program leading into Arts Day on the Hill and, of course, Arts Day on the Hill itself, was to connect and skill up a whole bunch of advocates.  As we say in our handbook, not just once‑off and not just in an emergency, not just around the particular day that is Arts Day on the Hill, but it's really important to be able to secure that critical mass, but to be able to do that in an ongoing way.  Hopefully in an ongoing way that helps to preclude the kind of funding emergencies that we've seen in the past but also the way it means those political relationships remain meaningful.  

Given the conversations we've been having all year, you know, in this group, and for those who are here now, what's your best advice for next steps drawing on what we've done and what we have so far, but also looking at what's on the policy horizon at the moment, including a couple of the little surprises of the last week?  

NICHOLAS:   So, it's now August and we had the election last May, which means that we're sliding into about the halfway point of this term of government.  So, I think it's always good to know where you're at in the political cycle.  So federally, they've really got only sort of 18 to 20 months left of this term which is not actually a very long time.  So you already need to start thinking about, you know ‑ we actually need to start thinking about as a sector what it is that we want to prioritise in the lead‑up to the next election, and what are the things that we want both government and opposition to be talking about as far as priorities for our sector.  

So, I think in many ways COVID has been an extraordinary economic, social and cultural leveller in many ways and I think it gives enormous opportunities to reset a lot of conversations.  I think that the appreciation for art, music, literature, film has increased quite substantially.  You know, I think there was a great appreciation that our sector was one of the first hit, and it's going to be one of the hardest to get back up online.  The threat now is that we lose a lot of cultural infrastructure, not the big public cultural infrastructure, I'm talking about the feeding ground, you know, the small galleries, the small live music venues, the small theatres.  And I think this is something that is going to be escalating quite a lot.  Cultural policy at the moment is pretty, you know, fly by the seat of your pants.  Normally we can do a lot more planning.  So that's why it's important to think about the long term out what does post‑COVID ‑ and is there such a thing as post‑COVID ‑ what does the cultural landscape, the patchwork, look like and how do we build it better.  I think certainly from my side of the sector, you know, we often refer to ourselves as the originators of the gig economy.  And we can see what happens to gig workers when things like this occur. So, what is it that we reimagine as far as how artists and creators are remunerated for their work? 

ESTHER:   Yeah.  Absolutely.  I think that's really astute to point out, particularly that moment in the political cycle, because some of the issues that we discuss are we want to see long‑term change and we want to see it sustained.  And sometimes problems can seem, you know, problems and policy priorities can seem so far away in terms of their achievement that you think it's going to take years and years to build that up.  But in terms of the political pragmatics of a situation, the election cycle means a great deal and while in the bureaucracy they're working in the particular slow and steady way, the political cycle means that there is a leapfrogging, there's a piggy backing, there are a lot of opportunities.  Something my colleagues and I have been reflecting on the last little while is that while on the one hand when we look at the policy and funding outcomes for this year just in terms of COVID response, you know, it's ‑ it's hardly been adequate, it's hardly been successful in terms of, you know, the way government understands what's needed and what they've invested.  But equally dismally, we're not alone in that.  You know, we look at education, we look at a whole range of other areas, there is, you know, a bit of a pattern of ignoring or undermining a range of sectors, unfortunately.  

But on the plus side, as you've just pointed out, the broader public and media impact that we've had, we've had arts and culture mentioned, you know, in pieces, in media pieces by economists, we've had political and economic journalists put questions to a range of politicians, including the Prime Minister and not in conversations that are about the arts but that are about all the issues more broadly.  And we seem to be in a position where, come that next election campaign, issues about artists' practice, the sector and the industry, we can very much expect those to be election issues.  We can very much expect to see that momentum maintained.  

So then for us as individuals in this group, what are some of the practical things that we can do as individuals to make sure that that momentum is maintained and that the relationships are maintained that lead to that?  

NICHOLAS:   Look, I was just ‑ while you were talking I was ‑ I was reflecting on that rather difficult situation that artists always have in ‑ you know, it's all very well to welcome Ministers and MPs into foyers and into the fold and have that close quarter of conversation.  But at the end of the day artists are always going to create stuff that is going to be controversial, that is going to divide.  This is something I think we're yet to really, you know, properly work out as far as important policy priority is concerned.  I think at the moment we're still in a recovery stage.  We're sort of in the post Brandis, post. 

NICHOLAS:   Ecological climate, COVID.  So, we're in a recovery stage.  But people are starting to look at the next stage of what that re‑build looks like.  And I think that's why, you know, it's important to sort of step back, try and put your head above ‑ lift your head up and look at the horizon and try and imagine what it is that is next.  That's why, you know, things like Arts Day on the Hill is so important because they're the beginning of conversations and it was kind of what we were talking about before.  It's the beginning of conversations.  It's never the end.  And it's the start of what you want to try and create out of that engagement.  

ESTHER:   Yeah, absolutely.  Nicholas, thank you.  It's been really fantastic to have you present those few weeks ago but also to have your insights now.  There's obviously a lot of great work for us all in the sector to be doing together.  But I know I speak for everyone in saying thank you for your work and the expertise that you have contributed to this entire program.  So, thank you very, very much. 

NICHOLAS:   My pleasure. 

(End)