Esther Anatolitis: So we're now recording, and I'll say a few things just to get the levels to confirm, which we'll cut out later, but my sound is sounding fine. Rohin, give me your sound again, just to be double sure. Rohin Kickett: Yeah. Can you hear me nice and clear? Esther Anatolitis: Yeah. It's actually really, really good and clear, which is fantastic. Okay. A small pause, and then I will begin. Esther Anatolitis: It's Esther Anatolitis, NAVA's, oh gosh! Outgoing executive director. It has been extraordinary few years and at this time of change, I am so thrilled to get to have a conversation as my final podcast with one of our newest members of the extended NAVA community, Rohin Kickett, who has only just recently joined the NAVA board. Rohin, it's so great to get to talk. Rohin Kickett: Yeah. Thanks. It's really good to have the opportunity. Esther Anatolitis: Robin, tell us where you are today. Rohin Kickett: I'm in Perth, a suburb called Forrestdale, and I'm sitting in my studio at the back of my house. Esther Anatolitis: And tell us about the Kickett family. Tell us a bit about your mob, your practice, fulfilling it over on the other side of the country right now. Rohin Kickett: Well, the Kickett mob, we're quite a large family, we come from the Balaton region, which is the wheat belt, a small town called [Newark 00:01:27], which was one of the first inland towns of WI and we can trace our family right back to settlement, just at the side of Newark, along the river, where they first made contact. There's probably a couple of 1000 of us over here. I have a very extended family and yeah, this is our home and we've been here for a long time. I'm only about 130 kms from where I was born, so we haven't really moved far. And, yeah. Esther Anatolitis: Oh, that's so great to still have that connection, but also it's such a big family. Rohin Kickett: Yeah. I meet new people in the family all the time and people say, "Oh no, we're Kickett." And I'm like, "Okay, which one?" At that time, I'll haven't met whoever they're talking about as well, so. Esther Anatolitis: And I'm here on the other side of the country. I am on the lens of the Boon Wurrung and the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation over in Nara, Melbourne. And it's a very disrupted place at the moment because of the pandemic, so we're going to have a bit of a conversation about that. But also, I guess more broadly about what Rohin is up to, some of Rohin's plans the next few years. And Rohin, we met a few years ago, didn't we? Rohin Kickett: Yeah. At the Future Forward conference. And again, It was here in Perth when we had a little meetup with all the other people, it was really good. Esther Anatolitis: I was just saying to a colleague that today, it feels like WI was my second home these last few years, I've spent a lot of time there over the last few years. But tell us about that first experience of Future Forward in that sense of, I guess, NAVA's role, but also all of our voices and the ways that we create that broader sense of what's urgent and what's needed. How was that Future Forward experience for you, looking back? Rohin Kickett: It was a really big experience for us and it was really stimulating too, because I'm only just really new to the whole art world and I didn't really know anybody over there. I'd message Damien Shen on Instagram because I was following him and he put up a poster of where he was going and I messaged him and said, "I'm going too," and, yeah, a really nice guy. He met up with us over there and introduced us to everybody and made us feel welcome and made us feel at home and yeah, so that was really nice to meet him. And especially with the conference, listening to all the artists speak, some of them really hit home, said what I wanted to hear. And one of those people was Richard Bell and I managed to get to ask him a couple of questions, which he gave us some really good feedback and that motivated me into what my plans are for the next few years as well. Probably one of the biggest, best pieces of information was from Patricia Piccinini, I think that's how you pronounce her name? Esther Anatolitis: Piccinini, yeah. Rohin Kickett: Yeah, she was saying that you don't really enter the art, you build it around you, with your network of friends and people, and that really stood out to me. That was something that I tried to adopt over here. Esther Anatolitis: I love that. It's such good advice, isn't it? We speak in abstract terms about the ecology, about the interconnectedness. And so, it's like you're waiting into this landscape and there are things that are there as though they're disconnected from you. But that sense that we're constantly creating that all the time, it's so important to have that mindset, isn't it? Especially thinking about your plans for the next few years. Rohin Kickett: Yeah. It's all about building community and building that around and using each other to advocate for each other and progress as much as we can and uplift each other. Not just progressing yourself, but as you progress, you're lifting everybody up with you and that's the whole idea of it. Esther Anatolitis: Yeah. Yeah. So then, in that context, tell us about your plans for the next few years. Rohin Kickett: Yeah. Well, we had the discussion at Future Forward where I asked Richard Bell about a lot of the issues that we face in here and the fact that Perth doesn't have an Art Centre. And a lot of the Newark people are at a great disadvantage because of it. A lot of the regional communities have their Art Centres and they get a lot of funding and they get a lot of shows and a lot of dealers go out there, and we don't have anything here in Perth to really help. And talking to Richard Bell, he just said, "Well, you got to do it. And if anyone gets in your way, keep the doors down and just do it." Esther Anatolitis: Good answer. Rohin Kickett: Going to Future Forward, we never had the plans to start anything. And then after Future Forward, me and my brother were discussing it and I said, "Well, if we don't it, who is?" So we just started the discussions with a lot of people in the community and the people at the city of Ammon, our council. As soon as they heard what we wanted to do, they absolutely loved the idea and they supported as much as they can. So this weekend is our first community discussion sessions, so we've invited a lot of the artists within our community to come down and talk about the issues they see and they face as being in Newark artists in Perth. And we want to know where they want to go in their career as well, so we can tailor things to help them achieve their goals and also to stop a lot of the issues that are happening. Rohin Kickett: And at the moment, we're still trying to discuss what does the actual organisation look like, because in Perth it's quite hard to run it from the traditional Art Centre style, so we're looking at maybe an organisation or an association or something where we connect all the smaller groups in Perth that are already currently operating and we have the one common denominator between everyone throughout the Southwest. And then we can apply personal development workshops where different artists can come in and do workshop on their style and just advocate for monarchy in Perth. Esther Anatolitis: It makes so much sense when there are organisations or networks that exist, like we were saying earlier about the ecology, you don't want to go in and create something that conflicts with them, and there's a great chance to learn and collaborate. But then on the other hand, like you were saying, in the specific Perth context, you were less interested in what might be a traditional Aboriginal Art Centre model and looking at the whole range of things that artists want and need. What is that traditional Aboriginal Art Centre model? And how's that different to what you're thinking about? Rohin Kickett: Well, with the community, I'll have a centre where a lot of the people in the community have to go to at some stage. And that model in Perth is quite difficult because we're such a broad area. And in one of the workshops we had on Art Centre, we got to hear from one of the Art Centres in Queensland who has a similar, massive area as well. And listening to her give us some advice was really handy as well. And try to take all that on board and just trying to keep the communications going with everybody is the key. Esther Anatolitis: Oh yeah. Especially over a big area. An area where there's artists at different stages of their careers and different kind of... Even some artists who are emerging might be more connected with a sense of opportunities and resourcing maybe some established artists, but that sense of just letting people know what exists must be a great challenge in terms of how to design such an approach. Rohin Kickett: Yeah. And we have artists who are well established in say, doing murals around Perth, but is that all they want to do? Do they want to enter another aspect of the art arena? And that's what we want to help with. So if they've got their goals to achieve something different to what they're already doing, we want to try and help them make that happen, and get them in front of the right people to advise them on how to do it as well. Esther Anatolitis: I was part of a conversation this morning that was facilitated by some government agencies, the office for the arts and the Australia council. And there were some presentations by a bunch of First Peoples Performing Arts Organisations talking about this notion of a self determined sector and looking at different leadership models and so on. And I got to thinking about Aboriginal Art Centres and the differences between self-determined leadership and resource sharing and so on in the visual arts and crafts and so on, as opposed to the performing arts. What are the kinds of things that you think, I guess, can be models or guides beyond the visual arts when it comes to the Aboriginal Art Centre model? Because you don't necessarily see it replicated for other art forms or practices. Rohin Kickett: Yeah, that's a tricky question. I'm mainly focused on visual arts and that's my practice. I don't really know too many other artists who are really acting space or the performance dance, and it's definitely something that we want to help with and we want to be able to cover those aspects as well. There are a few people that I know that are heavily involved in those arenas. So they're definitely people that I'll be approaching to see what we can set up to help them as well. And there's definitely certain key figures in our community already. Esther Anatolitis: So there'd be so many artists who cross out form boundaries and it's always a question for NAVA, when want to join NAVA, and they say, "Oh, but my practice is a bit experimental," or "It's performative," or "I draw on culture and cultural practice in different ways. I tell stories." Like, what does visual arts mean? But in this context, what struck me was the approach to self-determination and trying to establish, I guess, resource shares, organisations, networks, and it strikes me that Aboriginal Art Centres, especially when they're run by mob within community, it's already a model, a self-determination to drawing on so many long standing models of working together just developing on a drawing culture, drawing on culture in different ways. Rohin Kickett: Yeah. And with that self-determination, it brings me back to the piece that Richard Bell did for the test rewards of Aboriginal art, it's a white thing. And to me, it really resonated with me because you have a lot of gallery owners that will only show what they want to show and it's not really what the artists want people to see. And it's very well controlled, not by the Aboriginal artist himself, but it's reliant on Western people that want to show a certain type of Aboriginal art. And I want to try and take that self-determination back in control. We want to show and not what people want to show. Rohin Kickett: It comes down to the Aboriginal art space over-commercialised for so long that people have already a sense of what they believe Aboriginal art should be, because that's all they see in the shops, in the galleries and it's not necessarily what the Aboriginal artist want them to see. And I really want to see more solo shows by Newark artists in Perth, so they can actually put on a show, tell their story and actually show what they want to show, and not be told what they should be shown. And so, that's one of the main reasons why we need this organisation to advocate for Newark art. Esther Anatolitis: And it strikes me, it's going to have such important role when it comes to that broader leadership and advocacy and advising arrange of Perth galleries about the protocol, about working together, about exactly that. But, what's the decision making? What kind of perception, preconception white curators and gallery directors are placing? And so, developing that sense of what is unique about contemporary black culture? Rohin Kickett: And the one thing that always struck me was, every time we were out, when I saw Aboriginal art, it was done in such a Western way that almost lost its appeal as Aboriginal art is. Esther Anatolitis: Tell me more about that. What do you mean? Rohin Kickett: Well, you look at some of the artists that have gone through the uni system and they've adopted the mentality that uni instills into the students. And they've taken that and then they've done an Aboriginal arts project with that Western mentality behind it. And it doesn't quite resonate fully with what Aboriginal art actually is. And it almost like with every art, there is such a connection to the art piece and the artists. And a lot of these artworks, it's almost like that connection is missing and that it almost lost that connection between the Aboriginal artist and what he's actually trying to achieve within the artwork. Esther Anatolitis: Which must be so jarring to see. It must be like, when there's a mismatch there between what our work is doing or expressing and perhaps something that has been abstracted away, it must feel just completely culturally jarring to see that. Rohin Kickett: Yeah, it is. And it's almost like, the respect for Aboriginal art has almost disappeared and it's only accepted when it's done in that Western style, and I'd love for NAVA art to be respected for what it really is. And to try and do that, I think we need to get together and advocate for it. Esther Anatolitis: And it also indicates, like you were saying, how important it is to be able to have workshops, special development, that sort of thing. Are the many Newark artists or Aboriginal artists employed at Perth art schools at the moment? Rohin Kickett: There's only two Aboriginal artists that are actually going through university but believe it or not, I was one and I dropped out. Esther Anatolitis: Oh, you did? Rohin Kickett: Yeah. Esther Anatolitis: Tell us that story. Rohin Kickett: It really killed me mentally, [inaudible 00:17:03] severely. I had to leave it. My brother's still going through it and he's fighting the whole way to the point where he wants there to be an Aboriginal lecturer to be present during the review system, because the teachers are wanting him to do things that are completely inappropriate, and when he tells them, they're not actually listening. And so, he'd rather come from an Aboriginal lecturer to tell them that it's completely unacceptable. So that sort of thing is happening as well. And for me, at the moment, I couldn't personally advise an Aboriginal artist to go to uni until it is actually acceptable for the cultural art practices as well. Esther Anatolitis: Well, yeah. And fair enough. And it just puts your brother in that tough position, because he wants to get the whole experience of that education, and then at the same time, being the fighter and the advocate and the work, the labor of that, and the toll on him. I mean, no wonder you dropped out, you can't, at a young age, be the person doing all of those things and pushing that institutional change, which again is why it's going to be so important to have this Art Centre developed. The impact that you'll have will be extraordinary, but also, just to think about individual artists and having that horizon open up to say, "Yeah, we want you and your practice." Rohin Kickett: Yeah. Particularly with the Lester prize being a prestigious portrait prize here. And that's, even though there's not very many Newarks who paint portraits, and there are plenty that do and have the skills to be able to enter the competition, but you don't see them in the competition. And then lately, I've been contacting a lot of these artists and saying, "Have you seen this award? Next year, I want you to put a piece in it." And just trying to get... If I can get 10 people to apply and we might get one or two shown and that's a big step, that's what I love to see. Esther Anatolitis: So now, you were describing, coming to Future Forward, being inspired by Richard Bell and who wouldn't be, he's got a real way of just stoking the fire in the belly. But I reckon you probably already had a bit of the fire in the belly and looking at the ways to develop your voice as an advocate, what were you doing, I guess, just before? And what were the kinds of things that, thinking about what's going on in Perth, what's going on nationally? What makes advocacy for the arts and for Aboriginal arts so important right now, comparing it to then and right now, what is needed? Rohin Kickett: I think the further I get into my career, the more things I see, and the more things I see, then the more annoyed I get and, the more annoyed I get, then I want to do something about it. And it's just steam roll to this point where now I'm in a position where I can do something about it and it's a really good feeling that there is something that I can physically do. And when you see all these things and there's nothing you can do, there's no worse feeling than that. Esther Anatolitis: Yeah. Yeah. And that feeling of not knowing what to do or feeling disempowered, it can stop us in our tracks. And at different times in our lives, it stops us in our tracks, like when you knew it was time to drop out of uni, that was a generative thing, it made a whole lot of other things possible. But then, for so many of us, you can see those things that are frustrating, that are just so structurally embedded, and there are times when you do just want to stop and you don't want to continue. So what would you say, I guess, to artists who are listening to this and also people in a position to make change within their organisations? How do we... Esther Anatolitis: I'll say it again because there was a beep at your end. So what would you say to someone who is feeling that frustration and wanting to make change? What would you say to someone in a position to make change? How do we make sure that there are fewer people who stop doing what they're doing, and more people who continue to sustain their practice and that connection to culture? Rohin Kickett: Yeah. Well, just start the conversations with people, the more conversations that are happening, the more action that will happen. And particularly with artists who aren't really in the position to make change, there's still art, they can do artworks on these issues and show them in different shows. And that's a big part of what I do in my practice as well in one aspect of my practice, where I'll highlight these issues of our entire culture and I'll do it in a way that it's a physical act, but ends up with a visual piece at the end of it. And I did an artist talk on the piece last Saturday, it drew all the correct questions that I wanted the piece to draw [crosstalk 00:22:51], actually. Esther Anatolitis: Oh, that's so satisfying. What were some of those questions that you wanted and that you got? Rohin Kickett: Just to learn more about the history of our culture from 1905 to 1967, the 1905 act and what it has done to our people and to just get an understanding of where our culture is today. And for me, when I was at uni, I did the indigenous studies unit and to pull apart the 1905 act piece by piece really resonated with me and it gave me more of an understanding of all the things that I've seen growing up. And it made me a lot more comfortable in having that understanding, that I can actually explain it to people in a way that they can understand. But even then, talking to people, they will still just dismiss you. So then I decided to put it into an artwork and then people started to listen, and that's the power of art. Esther Anatolitis: It certainly is. That is a brilliant way of putting it. Art has an extraordinary capacity to compel us to ask questions, and it's almost like our body is asking the question before we even thought about it. It rearranges what we're thinking and feeling in some incredibly arresting ways. But that must have been a great experience to want to present something that's quite complex and then have people... Did you have that moment of just seeing that thinking happening? Rohin Kickett: Yeah. And it was only the second piece of that type of style that I've done too, so it was really good to get that feedback. And yeah, it was quite enjoyable being able to have that discussion with everybody. Esther Anatolitis: So then, shifts in your practice, shifts in plans around a new Aboriginal Art Centre for Perth. And now of course, just recently, you've been elected onto the NAVA board, which is fantastic and we are so thrilled to have you. What's the change that you'd love to see at NAVA? What are you going to be quietly and then less quietly leading the board towards? Because there's a lot going on right now and a lot of call for first people's voices. Rohin Kickett: Yeah. I mean, going really back in the code is something that I'm really looking forward to, because I use that code all the time in my own practice and I know how valuable that is. And to be able to have a voice in house, and how it is in the next two years is really, really important to me. And especially with Aboriginal artists, I'm always trying to get them to look at the code as well for their own practice and especially with a lot of way, a lot of things are set up within the arts industry is what I'm looking at as well. Particularly, we're making it early with the public art projects, there's a lot of things with specifically every Aboriginal art projects where they want Aboriginal artist to complete the design and do the actual work themselves, which is awesome that the money is actually going to Aboriginal people. Rohin Kickett: But at the moment it's, "Let's get a white team of artists to team up with an Aboriginal artist," and that's happening way too much. And there are so many artists out there who are capable, but with this cultural mentality, it's not really going to change it. I don't know how we can change that, but it's something that I want to have in the discussions. Esther Anatolitis: Yeah. I mean, if we can articulate what a standard should be, get that in writing, and get that great agreement, and then build those relationships where people realise, "Hey, this is actually a great way of doing it because you will create something that enriches life and draws on the work of expert artists. I think one of the great value of standards, and a code of practice is often about just getting in writing what you thought was maybe understood. But then, you only realise people haven't understood it when things go wrong. Rohin Kickett: That's right, yeah. And I mean, a lot of the broader sense too, like with the entire Aboriginal art industry, what it's built on itself. I mean, that's a monster as in its own Aboriginal art industry. And for me, just the fact that Aboriginal Art Centres need funding from the government is disgusting when you look at how much money Aboriginal artist is actually bringing, and there's quite a discrepancy there. And something's not right with, if Aboriginal Art Centre has to look for funding to survive when there is that much money in the industry, and the money's not getting back to the Aboriginal artists. And that's something I'm really am quite passionate about. Esther Anatolitis: That is just such a clear and strong way of putting it. We often talk about, or try and consider the value, the public value of the arts in general. But then, when you look at the dollar value that Aboriginal artists create in ways that the dollar value is not returning to communities, it's not returning to the development of practice. It doesn't make any sense at all. Rohin Kickett: Yeah. And that has been what Richard Bell has been campaigning for years and he's been doing a fantastic job. We need that change to happen and we need to figure out how can we make that happen. Esther Anatolitis: The very first thing, when we talked about Richard. The very first podcast that I recorded when I just stepped into this role was with Richard Bell. And so, it is very special to then wrap up those three years, speaking with you. I am so thrilled that you are on the board. I'm incredibly thrilled for what is going to become possible in Perth once the Art Centre is created. And it's one of those things where every one of the conversations that you're about to facilitate, whether those people are involved in the future with the Art Centre or not, you've changed something. People are connected in with actively supporting each other, developing practice, advocating for positive change. I think you're doing really important stuff, Rohin. Rohin Kickett: Yeah, thank you. With these community sessions, there's going to be a lot of information there that I can gather and they'll take the lever as well and that's something that's, I thought, was really important. So they get their voice heard as well. Esther Anatolitis: Brilliant. Well, as you know, our podcasts are also transcribed. We're going to get some information alongside this one about those plans, so that as people are listening or reading, it's possible to follow up and find out more. But for now, Rohin, thank you so, so much. It's been wonderful and really important to get to talk through all of this with you. Rohin Kickett: No worries. Thank you.